056. - Evan Ross Katz

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Hola! Oh, TJ, wow, busy morning. Oh my goodness. I know, I'm sorry about our workout went a little over. It's okay, I think it was a nice pacing for us to get our form correct and really move through it in a good way. Yeah, we just finished a kettlebell workout just a half an hour ago. I had to rush home. I didn't get my smoothie. That part of it really throws off my day, but I'm going to be able to work through it. What kind of smoothie were you hoping to suck down? I love to suck a Sun Life Wolverine from over here in beautiful West Hollywood. A wee-ho Wolverine is what you like to suck down. That's what they call me on Santa Monica Boulevard, baby. Not quite a silver fox, but more of a WeHo Wolverine. If I was a superhero, I would be the WeHo Wolverine, yeah. And by superhero, I mean gay man. What's the hero flavor profile of a Wolverine smoothie? I don't actually know. They do this, the dates. Sounds delicious. A ripe banana, almond butter, coconut, mana, ice, dates. Coconut mana? That's what it says, yeah. What the fuck is coconut mana? I don't know, bitch. You're the food influencer. I know what the word mana means, and I know what coconut is. I've never heard of coconut mana. That sounds like some sun life. Are you saying that it could be fake? It's CNN? I don't think it's fake coconut news, but I think that someone is taking liberties and maybe creating their own branded ingredient, perhaps. I think that's called good business. Here, hold on, hold on. I will... I'm going to pull up the receipts right now, loser. Oh, shit. Damn, we put me on the spot. Damn, actually, let me open it all the way. Banana, raw almond butter, dates, maca, bee pollen, raw cacao nibs. There's probably some other stuff, but it's not letting me. It's all in there. Yeah, but what's in the TJ smoothie? There's a few, but TJ, the similar one that I've been making, one whole young coconut, the flesh and the coconut water.

Maybe about a half cup of raw unsalted almonds. One very, very ripe banana and some ice cubes and then a little bit of honey if the banana is not too sweet. And then blend it up, baby. That's about as refreshing as it goes. And then also, you know, summertime barbecue. Put, you know, a few glugs of rum in there. Shit, bro. I really like the term. A couple of rum glugs. Because I know exactly what you mean by that. And that is nice. Yeah, a glug is when you, you know, a cocktail might have one shot in it. Yeah. And a glug is not two shots, but it's more than what? It's a TJ. It sounds like you're trying to brand a form of measurement. That's exactly what I'm doing. Interesting. And Bacardi rum is my mana. Do you really be tipping the back on the Bacardi? I mean, I've had that drink one time, maybe a couple months ago, and it was truly delicious. But no, I don't be drinking rum on the regs. I was about to say, I mean, I feel like rum, I never really drank much rum in my time, but I feel like it's really good. That's because it has a lot of sugar in it. yeah that's what i'm saying i just but but bacardi is the most popular like store brand correct yeah it is it's a budweiser of rum and also it rhymes with party so it really it's been the uh the subject of a lot of lazy lyricism over the years always bugged me how does the little kim song go black barbie dressed in bulgari buying everybody at the bar bacardi yes yeah that's right okay and that's that was a great Great line, and then it should have ended there. What do you mean? The whole song, or you mean I should have never said that? No, no, no. I mean the collective lazy songwriters of the future.

Yeah, you're saying Lil' Kim did Bacardi all the justice they deserve and people need to move on. But I feel like rum as a beverage has not been like cool guide yet. I feel like there aren't a bunch of small batch rums I hear about. There are, but it's just not big enough to really go on your sober radar. But there is a pretty strong rum cocktail mixology movement. It has a little bit of a little tiki energy. Ah, okay, okay. Which I feel like is not what CB is looking for exactly. I actually hate tiki stuff. What do you know? Well, I mean, you don't like it either, I'm sure. I mean, I'm in a few clubs, sure. No, I mean, I don't really like the tiki culture of it. It is, you know, like steampunk on vacation is kind of the vibe, which is not a great one. Excellent description of that. The problem for me is so many tiki drinks, it's just too sweet. It's just like drinking a fucking Jolly Rancher. Even if you have a very well-balanced one made by a pro with all the right herbal notes and blah, blah, blah and bitters in there, it's still just so fucking sweet. Interesting. I bet I drank rum once or twice in my life in an island setting. An island setting. I mean, you know the vibes, bro. You know we stay at the beach. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, CB's sucking down a nasty little Mai Tai. No, but I mean, the thing is, they're very visually appealing on a hot day, I feel like. Oh, yes. I mean, I used to drink the Audios motherfuckers all the time. What's an Audios motherfucker? It's a Long Island iced tea, but blue instead of brown. What? When did you drink those? When you were at a Blue Lives Matter bar in Huntington? Damn. No, when I was doing some underage drinking in the club and I did not know, you know, oftentimes. What goth night was this? It was not a goth night.

It was like a goth 80s kind of night. We would go there when we were like 19. We weren't old enough to drink and we would have to have older chicks buy us cocktails. I used to do that too, actually. There was a very popular 80s night at the Masquerade, a famed Atlanta venue. I think it's a rite of passage for the transitioning from being a hardcore straight edge bro into a... you know, career alcoholic and drug addict is to, you know, dip your toe in the 80s club jacuzzi. Well, they play the Smiths and the Cure. They play shit you're familiar with. And also, when you're like a straight edge bro, your main goal is like kind of fucking goth chicks, you know? And that's where it goes down. That is where it goes down. That is where it goes down. Fuck, man. But I never drank any nasty shit like that. Jesus. Hey, man. I was wise beyond my years even then. I consider it to be a wise move. Well, I mean, I guess it's a wise move from a monetary perspective because you get the most litty for the least amount of money. Right. You're able to get one drink, and it might be the only drink you need. Well, you're a big bitch. I feel like you need at least two. Well, at the time, one did it. But nowadays, yeah, I'm going to need. Because as a person who spent a lot of time partying with you over the years, I think I've said this before, but I don't know if I've ever seen you like twisted, twisted. Well, you should have seen me when I was 19. I mean, yes, I would kill to see that big tree fall in the forest. Man, it used to suck. I used to hate it. I mean, that's probably why I'm so good at not doing it now, and you've never seen it, is every time it did happen, because you always wanted to chase that dragon of like, all right, I went out last weekend, and I drank four beers, I had one vodka soda, and then I took two hits off of a joint, and then I ended up having the most fun I've ever had in my entire life, and then you're like, I just need to do that again this weekend.

It'll be perfect, and it never works out that way. Then you wake up in a bush or something like that. You got the spins. You wake up in a bathtub. One time, I actually was on a woods retreat outside of Atlanta when I was very young. I had taken ecstasy the night before. I got up, went to the bathroom. And I awoke laying in the bathtub. And apparently I had fallen into the bathtub, passed out, but I somehow dodged a spigot and came out clean because I could have really busted my head open. So you almost died from passing out from being on ecstasy. But I wasn't even on ecstasy anymore. It was the next day. Right. Ecstasy, hangover, slip and fall. Yeah, dude. That's not something you want on your tombstone. No, it's so lame. It's deeply uncool. And I don't know why I just admitted it to the world, but I guess that's what this podcast is all about. Yes, admitting to the world all of the embarrassing ways that you almost died. Well, you know, I feel like I have more than most. I got tons, baby. We can have a whole separate pod about it. All the times I've fallen down the fucking stairs and shit, baby. Hell yeah. So how do you... How do you feel about our workout today? Well, I mean, that's a workout that you put me onto during quarantine, and I did a lot of it. And it is harder than I remember after a couple months off. Good. But I like it. I mean, it's fun. I mean, I also just – it's kind of rare for me to work out with other people unless it's like a trainer. So that's also pretty fun. But we have to keep our little trap shut because we'll make each other giggle. We don't want to throw out a back or a neck. It is true. It is nice because usually when I'm doing that workout, I have the AirPods in and I'm listening to a podcast or something. I feel like I'm doing a vacay with no pods. Listeners, shockingly, Jason set this all up and he didn't bring a Beats pill, which I was really upset about.

I don't know if he can afford one or if he's not on the flow team. As an ex-professional DJ, it's a government issue. You get a blue or a green Beats pill just delivered to you at your doorstep. I have many of them. Don't worry. Well, I didn't see one today, and I could have really used some Lil Baby when I was on that 15th swing. You know, I'm a grown-ass man. I can't be owning a Beats pill. And I can't be bringing it to a park. I understand. I understand. I don't think you do. I mean, I actually think music would have been distracting, weirdly. So I think you made the right choice by accident. It would have been. Every workout is as much mental as it is physical. You know what I mean? Oh, my God. My trainer is so heady. So we do have a guest today. His name is Evan Ross Katz, and he is a writer that lives in New York. He has contributed all over the fucking place. He also has a podcast called Shut Up, Evan. He's had some pretty hard-hitting guests on this podcast. He has had. Andy from Bon Appetit. Can't wait to talk to him about that. But yeah, he's had a lot of people on. Nikki Glaser, who I actually think I like. Every cast member of RuPaul's Drag Race, most likely. This is a very impressive RuPaul's Drag Race cast. Every small part actor on Buffy the Vampire Slayer television show has been on there. Important. I mean, that's important. And Jake Shears from the Sitter Sisters. He's a true legend in the game. He's actually, I've podcasted with him before. Have you? He's a real treat. Did he do Tall Tales? He did, yeah. Damn, wow. Must be nice to get those guests for your old podcast, huh? Yeah, he'd be in the DMs, you know what I'm saying. Come here, Stretch. Let me holler at you for a second. All right, let's give Evan a little buzz, mate. Hi. Hi. What up?

Wow, this is – I've never done the – How are you? Yeah, we had not either until we started doing this podcast, and it's become our signature move. Even though we could have better audio quality, we've leaned into being bad. I have to say, though, I think your audio quality is pretty good. Thank you. I mean – I cleaned it up in post, Evan. Fair enough, fair enough. It could be worse, but – It's also like we're in the same city now, so eventually we'll probably do it in the same room, which will be a first actually for this podcast since we started it in quarantine. I almost don't want to. I know. I feel like it could lose the magic. I'm optimistic for you both. I think you can make it work. Thank you. Now, your podcast, what's your setup? How pro are you? We were pro before this all came to be. So we kind of like built a makeshift studio, but like we bought really good equipment and it was all kind of, and we were having the talent come and do in person. Sure. And then obviously this happened, but I have to say like, I don't know if I'll go back to in person just because I love being able to record the video off of the zoom call. Oh, so how, how, how important is video for you now? Well, for like our Patreon subscribers, it's like a huge bonus sort of something that is very light lift because, you know, we're just hitting record. And especially because like we're interviewing like a lot of drag queens and, you know, just big personalities that tend to come through. Not that they don't come through an audio form, but video only kind of serves to amplify them. Yeah, I think Jason and I, I think, yeah, I think we have faces for radio. You know what I mean? So maybe the Zoom recording, I don't think we'd be getting tips in Patreon if we should. I don't want to do glam before I pod. When we're in the quarantine, a lot of people who love or potentially need to be dressing up for their mental stability, they need that outlet.

Totally. Also, we've been able to just book so many bigger guests because you're not asking people to travel. You're not having to contend with busy schedules as much. So that's the other thing is like, I've been able to book people that I wouldn't have even asked before because I just didn't think I was worthy of their time. And now I'm like, you know what? They've got time. Yeah, no, I mean, we've definitely benefited from that as well. I mean, I think it's like, I mean, that's just... Present company included. Yeah, I mean, seriously, it's like everybody. I mean, now, how are you going through like friends of friends or just banging DMs or like just kind of whatever, depending on who it is? I am a DMer. I have had tremendous, tremendous success with DMs because my like big thing I always tell people. And I mean, maybe this isn't true for everyone, but in my experience, celebrities tend to respond to DMs and often the ones that. you would just be like, oh, they don't have, you know, they have a social media person or they're not checking their DMs. And I'm like, celebrities, people have time right now. And so people have time to do something as mundane as like shuffle through their DMs. Well, so who is the biggest, let's just get it out here. Who's the biggest DM response you've ever gotten? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. That is big. damn she really she really should have something else to do that's crazy no it's so true it's so true because When I message her, we go back and forth about Drag Race pretty regularly. And so I would speculate that I think she just enjoys having someone to talk about this TV show she loves with and not grilling her on politics. She just wants to check out and talk to a friend about Drag Race. Yeah, and I'm happy to be that friend. So what's up with – That's cool. I know that Drag Race is wildly popular. It's like a hit, and a lot of people in my life talk about it. I have never really watched it. Have I missed the boat or is it like, or is it still peaking? No, it's not peaking at all. You haven't missed the boat. I have to say, so in quarantine, I started Survivor from the beginning. I did seasons one and I just finished season 10 last night. We were just talking about Survivor on the last episode and two in a row. Wow.

And I bring it up because as someone who used to think Drag Race was like the best reality television competition show and you have to watch it, I have completely flipped the script having watched Survivor. And I would say Drag Race is an amazing show, especially in terms of offering a diverse cast of queer people and many queer people of color. Survivor is not that at all. But in terms of just the attributes of a reality competition that I love, Survivor, just the stakes are so much higher. So to answer your question, yes, I recommend Drag Race, but I do not think it is like the pinnacle of reality television. Well, my idea, I mean, the pinnacle of reality television for me is some of those early seasons of the real world is probably where my allegiances lie. Absolutely. But also, you know, I don't think the real world really gets as much credit as it deserves for the diversity and like kind of what they were tackling at the time. Totally. I mean, I think about New Orleans all the time and not just Danny, but also. was it julie was like the mormon yeah yeah yeah and then so like just in terms of so i mean obviously like they had a diversity in terms of race and race and gender but also just in terms of sort of bringing in people from different walks of life that would never have you know been in the same room together and forcing them to interact it makes it makes great tv you know yeah You know, when you put the racist 22-year-old with the, you know, intelligent black man on one show, they're going to get into it. But you know what? I feel like there was a turning point, if I remember correctly, I'm not the biggest historian on this, but I feel like Las Vegas with Trishel, that season was when they kind of like abandoned the original concept and were like, let's just get tons of hot drunk people to live together. And that's when it kind of deteriorated. I think San Francisco, when you had Puck as the punk bike messenger, kind of like street guy. And then you also had, you know, I mean, Pedro died from AIDS. That's crazy. And there was nothing like that on TV at the time. Like, no, nothing like that. And partly because reality TV wasn't as big and partly because those kind of topics were still pretty taboo. Totally. And you know what? And I think like my sensibility will always go towards that in terms of the fact that those people that went on those shows back then, they weren't doing it with any sort of like thought that this would give them a career or there was no such word as like branding. And so both the real.

world and early survivor and even early early drag race i kind of love the fact that those contestants were just so green yeah yeah no i think that makes it feel better there's a there's a purity to it versus this is my stepping stone to becoming you know to fucking a rapper or whatever it is absolutely for for hosting hosting a party at a bar in a tertiary market three nights a week um is the is now the drag race contestants i like are they well-known in the community before they make TV, or is it a mixed bag of, like, unknowns and knowns, depending on how, you know, ingrained in the scene you are? I'm so excited to be having this conversation right now. I would say that... They're known to varying degrees. I think that there was a turning point that happened around season 10 when there started to be something called the Instagram Queen, which was this idea that the girls would come on the show with huge social media followings. Oh, okay, okay. And they were kind of seen as bigger threats because they kind of came in with this fan base. Sure. But even looking back at like the season six winner, Bianca Del Rio, as someone who has lived in New York for almost 13 years, like I knew who Bianca was just because of the nightlife scene when I was in my early 20s in New York City. Oftentimes, the girls, they're people that people within the community know and love, but are kind of unknowns in the greater cultural zeitgeist. But even the season 10 winner, Aquaria, she was a pretty well-known figure in the fashion world, even before she ever walked into the workroom. So I think to a varying degree, some people walk in with more of a following than others, but none of them are like A-listers. When you say work room, is that a literal room or is that more of a metaphorical space? I take that as a roast that he said that without any explanation. That was a shot directed at us. The work room is the guest bedroom when I'm home alone, if you know what I mean. But it could go anywhere. What do you mean by work room?

Uh, so the workroom is like all of the contestants. Uh, it's the room in which they build all the costumes. They are the, the, the looks, they do the mini challenges in there. I would say like there's the workroom and the main stage. And those are kind of like the two sets that make up drag race. All of the competition takes place either on the main stage backstage or in the workroom. How is the word work spelled? Final question. W-E-R-K. Wow, Jason had to ask because I knew the answer. But I prefer W-E-R-Q. That's what I was wondering if there was a Q or not. Yeah, I'm a proponent of the Q. Interesting. Like I said, I've heard people talk about this show for years and understand the concept, obviously, because it's not that dissimilar from other reality. It's a reality competition show, which is there's a way that those work. But I do feel like the personalities are incredibly engaging in a way that other shows might not have. Yeah, I would say if you want like your Drag Race starter pack, I would just literally go to season two of All Stars. It's 10 episodes and it will give you some of the best queens that ever appeared on the show and the most organic drama that the show's ever produced. I love organic drama. Much like my produce, I like my drama to be pesticide-free. We're eating healthy on this side. I experience a lot of organic drama as I reach over a broccolini spear at Whole Foods. Exactly. Go ahead, Jason. You seem to really have an encyclopedic knowledge of television in general. Where did this come from? Where did it start? You know, what's the origin story there? I think that I just have, like, kind of one of those brains that retains strange details. And I think that because so much of my, like, adolescence was spent...

watching television i think that a lot of times like those you know it's when you mention a real world it's like all of a sudden my mind literally opens up and i'm literally just i'm literally going season to season and thinking about oh this person i loved and this was the hot gay guy on that season and that's sort of just how my brain works so you have like a rain man like ability Yes, exactly. Yeah, I have a Rain Man-like ability to remember all the hot gay characters in the real world. That's a great niche. We don't get the skills that we ask for. God just gives them to us. That's true. So you are somewhat on the television knowledge spectrum of an autistic level of comprehension is what it feels like. I love that description. Yeah, I mean, I'll say this, like, so right now, as I'm doing Survivor, I will then, after I finish, this is so sad, I'm not, like, proud of this, but, like, after I finish a season, I've been listening to this Survivor Historians podcast. Oh, my God. You should not be proud of this. Oh, my God. We can edit this out if you want. I mean, honestly, it's like, why am I admitting to this? Evan, how many, what's the over-under on the cats that you own? How many cats are in the house right now? That's so funny you say that. I had two, and I just gave my second one up for adoption because I'm moving in with my boyfriend and he's allergic. But so there was a time when there were two. Well, congratulations. I'm glad you sensed that. Because two does feel excessive for one man, I have to say. Really? I think a one-to-one cat-person ratio is probably okay. So are you moving from what neighborhood to what neighborhood? Um, so we, this is like, because of everything that's going on, we did an Airbnb for three months. Um, it's called new brand or sorry. Um, something branch, New York. Like we literally found an Airbnb. It's two and a half hours. I don't even know the name of the town. It's two and a half hours Northwest of the city. Oh, so you're leaving, you're leaving the city for three months. Yes. So basically like I'm, my boyfriend has his apartment in Greenwich village, but we're just going to stick all of our stuff in there.

go for three months, and then we'll either keep Airbnb-ing, but we just were kind of like, we don't want to be in the city. So have you stayed the whole time? Well, so we've been in the Hamptons for all of July, and then before that, we were in the city. Damn, so you're going from Hamptons to upstate. You're really doing the New York tourism. Yeah, yeah, it's all about giving back. That's really, that's the truth. That's really awesome. Are you a nature guy? I would be surprised to find that out. No, I'm, I'm, well, okay, like I'm non nature, but this is going to sound weird. And I want to stop bringing up survivor after this, but I feel like as a result of watching this show, I've become, I'm trying to become a little bit more just like, Oh, there's a spider. go kill it. Whereas like the old me would be like, you know, mom, mom, or like call whoever was near, you know, pick up the phone and pretend to call the cops. Cause that's sort of like the degree of fear. I'm trying now just to be like, not only do I need to kill it, but I need to not make a big deal about it and just fucking get it done. Well, I think it's really awesome that you are using something like, you know, watching hours and hours of mindless television and then, you know, applying an actual benefit to it versus just entertainment. Yeah, I mean, I'm all about educational consumption, you know? I can see that. And I think that growth during this time has been important for all of us. So whatever you can do, you know what I mean? Whatever you can do. But I mean, are you able to, because you're working the whole time too, right? Yeah, so my day job is with Netflix. And so all of that can be done remotely. I was working in the office before, but that was kind of more by choice. And then I do all of my freelance stuff was, you know, from wherever before anyway. So my actual, my workday and sort of where I am hasn't changed significantly. What are you doing with Netflix exactly? You know how Netflix has internal channels? You would probably be most familiar with Strong Black Lead and Netflix is a joke. So in January, Netflix launched an LGBTQ plus channel called The Most. And so I work on that channel. And so I do help with Instagram and the Twitter and all of our YouTube videos and all of the ancillary content that is essentially a marketing vehicle for Netflix for LGBTQ plus programming and talent. Amazing.

And how new, I'm sorry, how new is that channel? It launched in earnest in January, and I would say, like, officially in March. Okay. And how is it going so far? It's really fun. I mean, honestly, I'm not, I'm giving you the real, real. It's just because Netflix is a, you know, you know, Netflix, they have a ton of LGBTQ plus programming. So I think there's a version of this job that would have really been like mining for the content, but it's just, there's so much like, you know, recently I was doing a package of, they were like, can you find gay, we got to do a super cut of gay kisses. And my initial instinct was like, oh my God, like I'm going to, you know, maybe find three. And then I got to. searching and i was like oh like i have to cut gay kisses from my gay kiss package because there's so many um you know what a job what a what a cool and fun job yeah it is fun and it's very much you know you were saying earlier it's like i love television so like it's kind of it so when you're When you're putting something like that together, you're searching the way we would search or you have access to an insane database that's more searchable? Actually, I always wondered about that. If you needed that type of supercut, is there just a computer system where it's all in there and everything is categorized or is it just going in one by one? So we do have a kind of like a cool little system. And what you can do is it will transcribe. It has a transcription of every single word ever uttered on any show. And because something like a gay kiss would be subtitled as gay as the two. It would be subtitled as a two characters kiss. Yeah. I can't search gay kiss, but I could search for. um, the two kiss or just the word kiss. And then I would have to manually go through, but let's say I was looking to make a super cut of characters saying that's gay or, you know, some, some iteration of like, uh, gay rights or like some kind of gay phrase. I could just put that in and it would literally, it would scoop through all Netflix original programming and all of our acquisition content. But then I would present it and be like, voila, I made this. Yeah, sure. No, but that, I mean, that still requires work, but that's, I mean,

that would be almost impossible to do without that system. Yeah. But like, so for instance, we just did a super cut of one of, um, Trixie Mattel, who's like, who has a YouTube show for, for us. We wanted to do a super cut of her laughing. And that was literally, we just put Trixie laughs into the system and it pulled all the, it pulled all the time codes. Well, I mean, don't make your job sounds this easy. Yeah, no, no, it's very, this is just. Guys, guys, it sounds easy, but it's deeply nuanced. And I would want to downplay that. Yeah, I mean, I would say most people that have this, it would be an MFA at minimum. I just sort of skirted past the requirements. I slipped in here. I don't even know how. That's actually, that sounds really fun. That sounds like a good, cool job. Yeah, if the Bravo Network had a similar database system, Chris might consider applying. Yes, I would. I would. If I can't be the bartender on Watch What Happens Live, I guess I could make some super cuts. that would be really fun. But that would, I think would be challenging because it's like, you almost get into the territory where like, say you were looking up like throws wine glass. The system might like blow up because it would just so much content. Yeah. It would be, it would overheat. The servers would stop working. Yeah. Now, so are you watching, do you watch TV like all day? And like, does it feel like it's part of your job and then you watch it at night for entertainment or how do you split the, the, the watching? So I watch TV and movies all day for work, but it's sort of like a different brain that gets applied because I'm stopping and starting throughout it. And I'm like. especially because i'm doing the lgbtq plus channel i'm like have my brain i like wired to look for certain things so i'm not really watching for like quality i'm not like i'm not an editor looking at like okay like this scene works this scene doesn't i'm really just looking at what can we pull and then also what kind of can ring true out of context so it's kind of like you know so i just did queer eye season five recently and it's like those five guys are sort of

figures within the zeitgeist and so like there's jvn reactions are going to work to non-queer eye viewers that's yes they are sweetie because i've never seen a single episode and i know exactly what that motherfucker's doing listen i can't recommend watching it um but but can't recommend watching the show or just one person I wouldn't recommend watching Queer Eye, personally. Sorry. Don't you like it, Jason? Did you cry or something? I've teared up on a few episodes, sure. I mean, that says more about you than it says about the show. I don't know if that's an insult or a compliment. You know what? Let's leave it in the gray area. Look, you know, you got some motherfucker in a wheelchair and you changed their life. I'm going to cry. Listen, then literally the show is catered for you, the viewer that is you. So listen, enjoy it. Yeah, soft, straight men. Sorry, Jason. A deep connection with the personal emotions, sure. You lifeless, dead bitches can watch whatever bullshit you want to watch. Listen, you're better than us. You are better than us. Anyway, back to Survivor season 10. Where to begin? So I understand. So when you're watching for work, it's like for a purpose and very different than just pure enjoyment, which is what you're doing on your own time. Yeah. And then like at night, I would say like, yeah, I mean, it's obviously an unusual circumstance because of quarantine, whereas I think I'm watching more than I typically would. But so I would say. Usually at any given time, my boyfriend and I are watching a show together, which in this case is Survivor, and then I will be introducing him to my pick of the day or the week or whatever, and then he will have his pick. So right now, I've been introducing him to Buffy, and he's been introducing me to Avatar. Oh my god. And you got what? That's a wild combo of programming. What does your boyfriend do for a living, if you want to ask him? He's an engineer at Google. That's an avatar-watching job. Yeah, I was going to say, it all makes sense now. It all makes sense. I hope you were going to say something insane, but that all tracks. Yeah, no, it completely tracks. You guys had to set up some type of system with parameters in order for you to watch television or movies as a couple, it sounds like, because it's such a unique situation that you're in for your career.

yeah completely and then also just like while we're watching so like buffy is my favorite show of all time and it feels like a very like important moment in our relationship go ahead before before you end that i would just like for you to address the rumors that sarah michelle geller is a real bitch irl wow i would love to address that rumor so that is completely not true that is exists out there that says Sarah Michelle Gellar is a registered Republican. Sarah Michelle Gellar voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016, so I'm not sure if a registered Republican would be voting. Well, look, Evan, Evan, I'm not concerned with her political affiliation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm concerned with her, you know, treating fans and the help, you know, not nicely. This is categorically untrue. Have you had interactions with Sarah Michelle? Many. But was it at Comic-Con? Outside of Comic-Con, though. No, no, no. We know each other. So you guys will pull up to Crossroads and get a cheeky appetizer. I mean, not to get too into it, but basically she was my idol, and then through a very bizarre circumstance in 2016, we were introduced over email, and then Andy Cohen introduced us in person at Watch What Happens Live, and we've kept in touch since. Hold on, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I'm sorry. We need to rewind. Okay. So are you the guy that is going to get me my bartending gig on Watch What Happens Live? Absolutely. Evan, thank you for joining us on this podcast. I'll be contacting you after the podcast to set this up. I'm almost ready to take my shirt off if I have to. Okay. First of all, that's a mandate. But yeah, let's make it happen. I'm one of the top straight Andy Cohen fans in the game. I think you're the most important, then, of the Andy Cohen fan set. Good, because I've read his books. I'm really deeply knowledgeable about his approach. I feel like you could get him for the pod. Look.

Let me know. Why do you think we have you on right now, Evan? Yeah. This is a long pledge. I didn't know any of this going in. I just thought you were funny on Twitter. You know what I mean? And this is what happens. So I'm sorry. So you're friends with Sarah Michelle Gellar. So you can say for 100% fact that she's not only a fantastic actress and the lead of your favorite show of all time, but also just a sweet woman. I want to correct the record. I don't want to say that we're friends. I would say we're acquaintances. I will say this. I am in her phone book. So, like, that's the extent to it. And also, would you say that Freddie Prinze Jr. is still pretty hot? Yes, but I think he really had a moment, like, in 2015. He's leaned into, like, a dad aesthetic that's not, not like my, like, I'm not, like, dying to sit on it, but, like. I feel like, you know, we could entertain a fantasy. Okay. Okay. Because I think that I always find it. I think a lot of people don't know that his dad is kind of like a comedy legend. Totally. Yeah. Well, Sarah Michelle Gellar's stepfather, her father-in-law. I didn't know that for a long time. I think I listened to him on a podcast, but yeah, his dad is like a pretty legendary, right? Oh, completely. And it's so funny you say that because it's like so many people just have no idea who his father was, let alone that his father is this comedy legend. Yes. So I've met him as well. He's also very, very nice. Is he working? Does he work? Yeah, so he has a podcast. He released a cookbook. He's a voice actor for Star Wars Rebels. These motherfuckers, look, if you're famous, can you leave the podcast to us, please? There's only so much market share for this shit, and I can't be sharing with some celebrities. It ain't fair. It's wild. You literally go on someone's Instagram page all of a sudden, and they're just like, oh, just woke up and just decided, I'm going to start a podcast today. Dax Shepard, fall back, bro. You got TV money. Luckily, the cream rises to the top, as we know, guys. Okay, but wait. I do want to go back, though, because I don't know her intimately, but I do want to go on the record. She is so nice and so funny, and I've had nothing but the most positive interactions. And I only say this because if she wasn't nice, that would have affected my fandom. And so I just feel like I adamantly want to.

say like that's just she's one of she is the most down-to-earth celebrity i've ever ever encountered wow wow that's and you've probably encountered a good amount of them So, yeah, whoever is dispensing this falsehood, they need to come talk to me. I will make a citizen's arrest on this fucking criminal, and I will bring them to you, and you can give them their lashes. I couldn't agree more. Evan, you mentioned that you came into contact with her in 2016 through an odd circumstance. What are the dark arts and black magic that you willed this relationship into existence? Okay, so I'll keep this brief, but it is kind of funny. So my friend Eric Carmelo is the creator of the TV series Ringer, of which Sarah Michelle Gellar was the star. And so this was 2016. She had just released Foodsters, which is her baking kit company. And Whole Foods had announced that they were going to start selling Foodsters. And the first location they were going to do that was Williamsburg. foodsters i'm dying my friend eric and was like do you think that your friend evan because you know she'd heard about me from him could go to the foodsters in williamsburg and take excuse me go to the whole foods in williamsburg and take a picture of the foodsters And I was like, not only can I do that, I will go and I will rearrange the entire area of the store and make it a food service section of Whole Foods. Right. You will hand out samples, the whole thing. I mean, the whole thing. So I went, I completely redesigned the area. took pictures, sent them to Eric, and then I got an email from Sarah Michelle Gellar thanking me. And that was the beginning of what became at that time like an email correspondence. What did that feel like, you know, opening your motherfucking Gmail and it says Sarah Michelle Gellar has hit you? Well, okay, so it's kind of like... I mean, obviously, like, mind-blowing. That would be like if Whitney from the Hills emailed me. You understand? Yeah. Very comparable comparisons. Don't you fucking dare. I won't. But, like, I come from a time that sort of was before stand-up as, like, terminology and nomenclature existed.

Sarah Michelle Gellar is such a unique person to love because she doesn't have like a fan base. So like my love of her does not connect me to a larger group of people as is the case with like a Gaga or a Rihanna or so many of these like fan armies. And this is no shade towards them. But so Sarah Michelle Gellar is like, has a particular meaning that is unique, that is unique for me. And that didn't make me feel connected to anyone but her. So I think that moment of having someone who, I was a young gay kid in Pittsburgh. I got bullied a lot. And so having this slayer to look up to, this badass female who didn't let anybody get in her way, obviously there was some blurring of the lines between actress and character for me. And to me, this was just this epic hero who... kicked butt and who wasn't too good to cry like i always loved the complexity of the character of buffy because she was extremely strong and could be incredibly weak um so i think all of that's just like the i mean you know the fact that we i got that email and then it grew into what it is now it's so surreal but it's like so special because i'm able to be pretty normal around her now and i genuinely think she finds my love of her she gets it you know it's not I'm not, like, a scary fan. I'm, like, a funny fan. But, like, I send her... Well, she can see the checkmark next to your name. She knows it's all good. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sure she's looking. But, no, like, I send her articles that I read. I keep her in the loop about things. I help her sometimes with her Instagram. I mean, like, I want to be a resource to her because, like, you know, I care about her reputation, as we saw evidence 10 minutes ago. So I kind of, you know, I carry the torch that is Sarah Michelle Gellar. And I'm going to see it through to the... finish line it's beautiful i think it's beautiful i love this because i don't know anybody i just it's interesting i've never heard anybody talk about her this way so it's nice to hear this well and i just will say like you know we talk about like the meryl streep's and the viola davis's of the world and like i'm not even being funny but i realize it sounds funny when i say i think sarah michelle gillard is one of the greatest actors ever ever and she'll never be regarded as such and that's fine with me but i'm still gonna believe it in my heart like that is acting

That's how I feel about Sienna Miller. So I understand. I understand where you're coming from. I understand where you're coming from. Well, you were mentioning that the way that you, you know, the way that she doesn't have like, you know, armies of fans and you have like a real connection with her and she has a connection with you. Do you, when you meet other people who have a similar level of Sarah Michelle Gellar standing, do you have like, do you feel like a common bond or connection with those people? Not really. Like, like if you go to Buffy con or whatever, I wouldn't though. Like I've always felt like, you know, Buffy's my favorite show, but I've never felt very connected with Buffy fans because I think that what I love about the show is not the thing that most people love about it. So, and I also just, it's. it's like, I don't, I don't feel this like yearning to connect with other Buffy fans. I would say like when I see a Sarah Michelle Gellar post on Twitter going viral, yes, I start to tingle. Like I certainly feel a certain something, but it's more like gratification that like the world is recognizing your queen. Yeah, exactly. That's how I feel when I see an article about Evan Dando, so I understand. I totally get it. You know, because I can relate to you, Evan, because a lot of things I like, I also can't find other fans except 50-year-old white men. And I don't have a lot to relate with them on. But I think Sarah Michelle Gellar is an interesting show. Because I feel like, I guess I never really watched that. I guess Dawson's Creek was like my version of that show. Maybe in that same era, because that's a similar era, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, I just, I don't, you know, our last, this is really interesting, but our, our, one of our last guests, Alex, Alex Frank is also from Pittsburgh. Oh, which is very connection. I haven't known. I don't think I knew. I think I know the, now I know three people from Pittsburgh. That's very interesting. That's the most interesting thing about Pittsburgh though. Unfortunately. No, we are the birthplace of Gertrude Stein and Andy Warhol. That's right. And Jeff Goldblum. We've got some Michael Keaton. We have some serious star power. Birthplace means. That's good. That is pretty good.

Birthplace means they were born there and then they left, though, right? Just to be clear. No, no, no, no. I mean, well, I don't know about Gertrude Stein, but Andy Warhol is buried in Pittsburgh, grew up in Pittsburgh. Jeff Goldblum did a documentary called Pittsburgh. I mean, listen, like, if you're from Pittsburgh, you, I mean, I can't speak uniformly about the city, but there is like a unique sense of pride that I... I've always felt, and whenever people, I would be like, oh, I'm from Pittsburgh. They would be like, oh, I have family in Philly. And I would be like, we don't, that's meaningless. That's the equivalent of you saying, I like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Chris saying, oh yeah, I watched a lot of Dawson's Creek. And you're like, oh. Yeah, it's like, you know, you can't sit with us. It's the same thing. I just meant the same time period, Jason. Fuck off. Evan, for a guy who watches so much television, how do you keep the body looking tight and right? So I'm a runner. I run six days a week at minimum. I'm with Nike Run Club. And I did the 2017 marathon. I did the 2019 marathon. I wasn't going to do 2020, fortunately, but I hope to be back again in 2021. But I'm a big, big, big proponent of running. And that's where I listen to all my podcasts. Cam, you're a real type A overachieving motherfucker, aren't you? Not in an annoying way, hopefully. Do you ever just kick back and smoke a little grass and eat some pizza? Fuck yeah. That's what I was going to say. Yes, I'm up at 6.30 and I'm getting my shit done, but when I close my laptop, I'm pretty good about... I can get rid of that feeling pretty quickly. That's good. Be grateful because that's a skill that a lot of people do not have. Or they struggle with it, I would say. Yeah, for sure. No, but I mean, I used to be a weed dealer in college. Oh, tell me more. Where did you go to college? I went to NYU. I'm one of those. Classic. So you had a bunch of hot female friends that were rich and from LA. It was so hard. And you sold weed to other students? Yeah. You were able to sell $80 eights to rich bros?

I mean, you could really get away with, I mean, it was insane. And also too. I started my sophomore year and I was in the dorms then. And so when you're a dealer at NYU dealing in the dorm, you never have to leave the dorm. You literally, your customer base can all just be within the one dorm, you know? So it's like, at first I was like, oh, how am I going to do this with like signing people in? And then I quickly realized it's like, NYU kids are many things. One thing they are not is resourceful. So it's just like, if there's weed in the building, they're not going to be like, oh, well, am I getting? the best you know quality for my buck they're just gonna be like give me the grass and so did you did you have that gas or you are you selling mid to these losers No, I would say it was, like, kind of middle ground. So I had this whole crazy operation. But basically, I was having a grower that was in Pittsburgh drive by the pound about every two weeks or so into the city. And then, like, it all started to break down after a while. But you never got popped. Like, you're free and clear. No. And, like, I – and you have to – mind you, this was in college. So my parents were paying for, like, my living situation and my groceries and everything then. So everything I was – was making was purely profit. You were going to, you were spending it to Beatrice in on those vodka sodas. Yeah, exactly. I assume you were being very responsible with your money at that age. I actually surprisingly was like all I, cause all I didn't have to spend money on pot. And so all I was spending money on was drinks. They didn't know you were buying, spending it on clothes. No, at that point, this was like before I got into fashion, I didn't get into fashion until. Probably around when I graduated, but all of college, no, I was in sweatpants. So you weren't really dressing back then? No, not at all. Honestly, I got this internship with a magazine as soon as I graduated. And I quickly learned in order to sink or swim. Well, no, I didn't want to sink. And I quickly learned in order to swim, I was going to need to get my education up to stuff fast. And so I think I kind of crash course through fashion very quickly in my early 20s. What was really popping at the time? I don't know how old you are. So let's just talk about the trends.

I am 31 now. I had to think about that for a second. You know, that was really the beginning of e-commerce in terms of the... I don't actually know how to say this. Essence. Okay, so this is the first time I've had to say it out loud. I understand. It feels good, doesn't it? It feels interesting. Essence. I don't like that. Okay. Um, but this was the beginning of like being able to go on those sort of like, you know, the e-commerce version of like a Barney's, but being able to go online and say, Hey, I want to look at, I want to search pants and I want to see all the designer pants that I can see. And also just like the accessibility of it all, because, you know, you've been to these places like Bergdorf's and Barney's rest in peace, where even if you spent a few hours, you weren't possibly going to be able to get through the inventory. And you really were able to go on these essences. I mean, even now you can even search down to color and everything, but you really, you're able to glimpse so much more now. And this was really the beginning. So like they would assign me, I remember like my very first assignment was like a Memorial Day roundup. What magazine is this? This is Essential Ohm. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was like a Memorial Day roundup. Wait, is Essential Ohm kind of a pyramid scam? I feel like no comment coming along. I'll answer it this way. No. Okay. That's all I would say. But you were still forced to get an education. I was forced to get an education and I got a paycheck. So as far as I'm concerned, it's like as long as the check clears, we're good. If the check clears, yeah, you're good. Yeah. But so I was like going on there and I remember just like in the beginning, it was basically, okay, how do I create? How do I, you know, I'm not a stylist, but that was essentially the job at that point. And then creating the copy around it. But it was like, how do I use these websites? together what my idea of a memorial day look would be and i quickly learned it was like okay well i can't just stick to essence and then it was like i would see like a rick owens coat that i liked but then i would be like okay well let's explore let's go down the rick owens rabbit hole and so it became a deep deep hole it's a deep black rabbit hole so what you're saying is you didn't you didn't have to catch up you didn't have to catch up with fashion um fashion had to catch up with you

uh yeah that's a very kind description not so much but uh i'll you know what i like that let's go with it what are you what are you buying these days i'm not buying much these days to be honest with you because there was so i did like a little bit of the c smart john um end of business sale yeah i had to jump into that a little bit but to be honest with you i was buying stuff at the beginning of quarantine and being like oh this will be the i'll wear this when and that i i really found that deeply dissatisfying without a goal of like without a date in mind. And then I also, in the beginning, like it's supposed to be back in March, I was shopping for summer and I realized now it's like, I wouldn't even know what season to be buying for. Yeah. Yeah. When you say this is for when there's no more when. Yeah, there is no when. So I really, I still find myself obviously like I'm watching all of the digital shows and I'm still keeping up with it. My interest hasn't waned at all, but I would say my desire to own it has completely shifted for the time being. Dan, that's pretty interesting. Actually, I kind of feel the same in some ways. Obviously, I keep up because it's my job, but also because I like it. But yeah, the desire to cop is not as profound. I think just from an investment standpoint right now, there are things that make more sense to spend your money on than clothes, considering we're not. leaving the house. Not only that, but it's like think of all of the things that you have in your closet from way back when that haven't gotten worn in months. It's like when this is all over, I have items that I previously owned that just I haven't got around to wearing. So the idea of like bringing new children into the household when I have children that have yet to be raised, it's like I need to deal with like what I have in the house right now. Or even old shit that is so old it is now kind of new and exciting again. Exactly. That's fashion. The cycle of fashion. Wow. Well, I'm living out of a suitcase, so I do have a little bit of a craving for new gear just because I'm tired of looking at what I have. But I also know that's not the entirety of my wardrobe. So I have to keep that in mind. I have to keep that in mind. Evan, we've had a lot of people asking us about the Zac Efron.

Netflix show can you can you give us a little rundown of what to expect yeah so I actually just it's funny you mentioned that I like suggested that we pull for that because it's not technically queer obviously but I was like well I mean well it's queer interest yes it is yes it is I would say for any of your female or gay or listeners that are Zac Efron attracted, I would say you want to do episode one and episode six. That's when the shirt comes off. I would caveat that by saying this version of the Zac body, which I know is getting a lot of traction on Twitter. This is not my favorite Zac body that we've seen. I would say the paper boy, the Nicole Kidman film that he did. That would definitely be like my favorite. Zac Efron body moment. Is that the one where he pees on Nicole Kidman? Yeah, that's that one. I don't know anything about this. Oh, yeah. I've never even heard of this movie. Water sports or like she got stung by a jellyfish? Stung by a jellyfish. Oh, damn. My boy Efron can be a little bit of a freak. Sounds like Chris knows his pee-pee play a little bit more than I realized. Yeah, no, I'm literally looking at a vulture headline, Lee Daniels almost cut the peeing scene from the paperboy. Yeah, no, it's definitely worth checking out. But anyway, so the Netflix show, it's like Zack being... It's like, he clearly is someone who has become very introspective in his sobriety and is very, I would say the centerpiece of the show is like, I don't want to be stuck in this Hollywood bubble anymore. And so as I journey out of it, I want to bring you along with it because I think the larger theme he's going with is that we're all too obsessed with this idea of Hollywood when we should be focusing on learning about. everything besides Hollywood. So I would say like the effort is very noble and he takes you on some cool places. Um, and I would say it's like, it's fun. It's six episodes. It's light. It's easy. Um, I wish he would be more naked. It would be like my big note, but you know, we could do that in season two. I think the, the Efron body talking is actually insane. Like saying that that is a dad bod is fucked.

It is fucked, but okay, can you tell me what your thoughts are on this? I kind of feel like I really wasn't seeing that discourse. There was like this typical thing that happens on Twitter sometimes. It's like the rebuttal to the discourse became so verbose that I was like questioning. I was like, wait, who was earnestly calling this a dad bod in the first place? Because I saw more people getting mad about it being called a dad bod. then I saw people calling it a dad bod. Good question. Yeah. I think that's the dark side of Twitter. If I could look like Efron, you know, but still have my height, I'd be very happy. Efron's a little shrimpy. That's the problem. I was going to say he's very, like, petite. So, like, just from, like, I don't know how big the dick is. Like, I'm not getting a sense of a big dick from the proportions. I'm not sure how big the dick is. What are we predicting with your... With your, you know, your skills that you've amassed over the years. I'm getting like a six and a half from him, but I have to tell you. Not bad. Everything, all of my, all of my system, all of my thoughts on this have been sort of, you know, you read, you heard that Azalea Banks was tweeting last night. Yeah, he had weak dick, weak dick game. Shia had weak dick game. Yeah, and like, it's like if I ever thought any white male celebrity would have the dick of dicks. it was going to be Shia LaBeouf. So now that I've learned that, it's like a paradigm shift for me. And I'm like, actually, Zac Efron's probably extremely, he's either extremely hung or there's just a character. You know what? I feel like Zac, I feel like Efron is a lover though. I feel like, I feel like Efron might know how to use it. Yeah. I feel like Efron is the kind of guy that in the porn, I would want to see him. Like, I want to see like an aerial shot of him because I really want to see like the thrusting of the butt. Okay. That's specific. So we need to get a drone in there so we can get, we want to see the lines of his back engaged. I don't want to burst your bubble, Evan, but Jason, Efron is Jason Sarah Michelle Gellar. Tell me more. We're just, he's just a celeb that I have worked with and we have, we became friends from that.

Interesting. He's a good actor. He's actually a pretty decent actor. Well, the whole narrative about him being basically the next Tom Cruise and just never getting the movie, it has always been interesting to me. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, is it him or is it the roles he chooses? We don't know what it is, but now it sounds like he's gone off the rocker and just done a Netflix reality show that people are talking about more than any movie he's ever been in since High School Musical. yeah yeah it's interesting too though because it's like he generationally it's like he i think high school musical i want to say it was like 2012 or so i could be wrong but like in that time and i feel like to be that age it's like he was just before the onslaught of social media yeah and it's like i feel like you either want to be a few years older than him or a few years younger in terms of touching down on the zeitgeist because with the Sarah Michelle Gellar she's considered nostalgia right because it's like it's something that existed in the late 90s early 2000s before social media and then you have like the Billie Eilish's of today that are like you know live have never lived in a world without social I feel like he sort of is that like weird middle area where it's like he's a tweener yeah I I think it could still happen for him. I feel like he could have a cool, like, early 30s. Because how old is he, you think? Is he 30, you think? Yeah, I feel like early 30s. Yeah, I feel like we could give him three to five years. I think now he just has enough money saved up to where he doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do anymore. And he can just kind of be himself, I guess. Hopefully his himself is good. He has that really interesting kind of fame in that it's like, straight men love him, gay men love him. Women love him. He's really able to have a fan base that kind of taps into lots of different markets. It's kind of like an EGOT for sex. Yes. Who else embodies those? Yeah, I was thinking that. Who else is in that club? That's really interesting. Jake Gyllenhaal? Yeah, I think Pattinson to an extent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Maybe a Bad Bunny? Bad Bunny for sure. Oh, without a doubt.

Bad Bunny, very good call, TJ. But, I mean, Gyllenhaal is a classic one, though. I feel like Gyllenhaal is actually the playbook. He's another short king, though. He is a short king. Who is he? I've seen him in real life pretty often, and he's very good looking. He's got it. The shortness isn't distracting. No, and honestly, if you're ever bored, it's just like one thing I find myself spending a lot of time Googling. It's just Jake Gyllenhaal Beach. First of all, the amount of images is really – you get like a good variety. And his body – I'm going to sound a little too researched here. But his body goes through so many like slight modifications in terms of its tonality. And I just want to highly recommend that. Me too actually. Evan, what do you think you would be into if you were straight? That's such an abstract thought. And if you were straight, would you be in jail? No. Okay. If I was straight, honestly, this is going to sound so weird. I feel like I would be into like a Susan Sarandon. Like a younger Sarandon. Sure. But that kind of, I just think that she kind of has a sexuality to her. Okay. No, that's a cool answer. Or Sigourney Weaver. Right. Oh, they're similar though. They're in the same kind of energy. So she's got a type. Yeah, she might. Okay. Interesting. I like those answers. Those are different than I was expecting. Who did you think I was going to go with? I don't know. I guess I was less of just like, you know, who you would, you know, what specific celebrities you'd be attracted to and more of just what you'd be into in general. You know, it's like, it's so interesting because. I have never been with a woman before and it's very hard to imagine it realistically. And I don't even mean strictly from like the sexual perspective. It's like having that sort of, I've never had that intimacy with a female. And I, again, I don't even just mean sexually. Um, but you know, never say never. Wow. We're open to it.

Yeah. Well, you know, that's where we're at when the world is upside down. Right. Exactly. It's like you got to be open to some things you might not have considered before. Yeah. The whole is a whole door swings both ways. Yeah, it does. It really does. Well, I mean, I guess that. Yeah. I mean, intimacy, though. Yeah, you're right. I guess the intimacy level with a woman not even being sexual is interesting. Yeah, especially because there's this thing. I mean, I think a lot of gay men can relate to this, but there's like a comfort that a lot of women have inherently with us because they feel we are a non-threatening force. And so the idea of like having that shift and not having that immediate comfort that I feel so many women have with gay men, I think it would immediately from the get go create such a different dynamic because, you know, even for instance, going back to like. DMing with AOC. I think it's completely different being a gay man DMing with AOC than it would if I was a straight guy. I just think it's different. It's more like we're kiki-ing. If I was a straight guy, I'd have more questions. Why do I feel like I'm so comfortable around gay men? What does that mean? I have to think about this. I think it's because you're a talker. Chris was born to kiki. I was listening to so many of your, I mean, I listen to the podcast regularly, but I went back and was listening to several of your episodes with Phil and Michael Kuby because I was like, I wanted to see how you guys talk to gay men. And it's like, I feel like the both of you are so willing to go wherever. And I feel like that's a great quality for gay men because we're just so filled with non sequiturs. So I feel like you have that ability to ping pong. Yeah, damn. I've never thought about that before. I love analysis. Hey. Read me. Chris can pong with the best of them. Speaking of podcasts, I wanted to talk about your podcast. Tell us about what it's about. It's called Shut Up, Evan. It launched in May of last year. We wrapped up our first season last month and then we're launching season two in September. The idea was just like I...

Wanted to do long form interviews in the vein of like a Howard Stern or like a Mark Maron. Mark Maron is someone I really, really enjoy his style of interview. And I wanted it to be focused on LGBTQ plus celebrities or LGBTQ celebrities that are sort of of interest. So not, you know, people like, for instance, we have Lisa Rinna coming on in season two. Damn, don't flex. Don't flex on us. Don't flex on us that hard. That's too great. You got Rinna. You got Rinna coming on. It's just a mandate. It had to be. But I wanted to do these long form interviews and I wanted to do things, you know, again, going back to Marc Maron, it's like I wanted to create containers where people could have conversations that were a little bit more introspective. I feel like particularly with LGBTQ plus people, we have a lot of experiences in our past, whether it be like our coming out or the first time we saw another LGBTQ person, whether it be a family member or a celebrity. I feel like these can be like really pivotal moments. in our life that don't always get discussed. And so I wanted to create a forum where we could like have those conversations. And again, you know, sort of ping pong wherever they may go. And so we did the first season. The numbers just kept growing and growing. And we have some really big guests coming in for season two. And I'm just excited to kind of see where it goes. I just, I mean, similarly to you guys, I just like talking to people. Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's the basis for for a good podcast. I think you have to have that genuine interest in others. And I think that shines through almost no matter who the guest is, if that's really part of your personality. Completely. And one of the really fun things about having the celebrities that we've had on so far is that they know me from social media. So it creates a different interview dynamic when... They kind of know my flow. They kind of have a sense of my interests. It's really fun when a guest comes on and wants to talk about Joy Behar with me because they know I love Joy Behar. And that's a conversation that I really want to have, but I would never have it on my list of questions. Like, oh, let's go deep on Joy Behar's hair during season 15. But if someone else brings that up, and that's one of the joys of having these communications largely.

through Instagram is like, they have a sense of you going into it. And I, that for that aspect of it, I'm very grateful. It is a good feeling when you are the host of a show and then your guest has a very poignant question for you. You know, it's, it's, it's always an amazing feeling. Yeah. And like we had, so Rose McGowan was our guest during the third episode. And that was like before the podcast had even launched and she's an old friend of mine. And like, I called her and I was like, will you do this for me as a favor? And I was like, I want to do this. And I was like, obviously, we're going to talk about Harvey. But I was like, I really am interested in talking about Scream and Death Proof and, you know, like her film catalog, you know, her outfit that she wore to Marilyn Manson to the MTV video music. Damn, a classic. A classic. And so that interview is one I'm like, particularly proud of because yes, we get into the Harvey of it all. And we get into her the last few years of her life in particular, but we also spend a ton of time just shooting the shit. And one of the things that I feel, I love Rose so much. And I feel like in. People have a sense of her as being a very serious and angry person. And she is. She is also extremely funny. And, you know, I texted her the day before the interview and I said, I'm really excited. And she responded, hashtag me too. Like that's gross. And so I feel like that's one of the things that I hope to do with this podcast is like give people a sense of the person as they thought they were, but then also sort of twist that a little bit and be like, you know, people can be complex beings and can be two things all at once, can be five things all at once. And I really want to show that aspect of humans that exists in celebrities and in all of us. I think that's important. I do think that people get. You know, people contain multitudes. And if you can show that, it's interesting for everyone. And it's just, I don't know, it's like a look at the human condition in some ways.

Yeah. And it's like, I don't, she, I asked her, I was like, what's the project that you have to talk about the most? And she was like, charmed. And I was like, I don't really want it. I don't care about charmed. I mean, no offense. I don't really want to talk about it. I was like, let's talk about your death scene and scream and let's go deep. And it's like that sort of quote unquote niche subject. It's like, I love getting really specific with someone about an iconic moment. So like, that to me is way more interesting than us recounting like, what was it like being on this show charmed? Like you've talked about charm. Who's even on that? Alyssa Milano. Alyssa Milano. Do her and Rose have beef? They do. They do. Just like some regular shit or like you made more money than me. I hate you. I don't know the ins and outs of it. It's all Googleable, but I know that they do not like each other. And I know I'll say this. I know that when Rose posts pictures from charmed, she will tag Holly Marie Combs and she will not tag Alyssa. Damn. Damn. It's kind of like every opportunity to be like, I don't like you, is underlined. God, I love shit like that. Alyssa was just on that live, the Instagram live. Yeah, Z-Way show. Z-Way show. How did she do? Did she get destroyed or did she keep it up? She didn't do great. However... Who has done great, though? You can't do great. That's the nature of the show. You can't do great, but I do feel like you're better off to do the show because doing the show puts you in on the joke of yourself to an extent, even if you're actually not. It's like you really can't go on that show and bomb bomb because the whole construct of the show is built for you to bomb. So I actually find... someone embracing that to kind of be like, even if you don't do quote unquote well on the show, I don't want to say I respect you for going on. I wouldn't give it like that platitude, but like I do. How do you, how do you bomb gracefully in a cool, interesting way? Yeah. It says something about you that you were like willing to be on the show and expose yourself in that way where it's like, I can't fully hate you.

okay that's fair but the problem i guess the problem with bombing or doing poorly on that show is you are potentially exposed as a terrible racist person versus like oh i you know we made fun of me for a while but in my experience of watching her show i mean like the biggest thing i find is that It's less that these people are outright racist and more that they're not engaged in the work of anti-racism or they don't have a network of black friends. So what more exposes itself is sort of like the bubble of fame than it does these people as like awful human beings. It more just sort of separates them from the humanity that they have. Which guest asked her how many Asian friends she had? Oh, God. Was that Bowen? I forget which one. Wait, it was Bowen. That shit was fire. And she was like, it was, that's the only time anybody's ever gotten her. Literally the only time I've seen it. And she didn't know what to say. I mean, I think it's, I don't know. At first I was really entertained by it. Now I'm like, I kind of know what's going to happen. You know what I mean? To an extent. But it's, it's a very timely, the whole thing is like really good for right now. I think. One of the funny things about it is like now it's getting all this traction. Like it's gotten all these, she's gotten all these profiles now and everything and she deserves them. Don't get me wrong. One of the interesting things is like this show, the idea for this whole, I don't know if you want to call it a show, it's like it's counterculture, but it's like by getting these sort of, getting this sort of A-list recognition that it's getting, it's sort of, I don't want to say it deflates the premise, but it's almost like. The culture that the show was trying to comment on, it is now being included in said culture. Yeah, yeah. And that's always a difficult thing when you set out to do something subversive and it ends up getting traction. Like Desus and Miro doing one thing. Completely. And now you have a show that's on a network and now you have to.

be the thing that you've made fun of yeah i mean and another great that's a great example another one is like if you watch old school housewives when they used to throw the wine glass it was because they needed to throw the wine glass to get their fucking point across yeah now they're throwing the wine glass because they understand this branding glass is a tentpole of the franchise yeah so it's just a different intent now it's not to say i don't i still do appreciate a wine glass throw sure but it's different it doesn't it doesn't hit the same It doesn't hit the same, but it's also, but it's like that analogy. Yeah. The, all that stuff is like it, it, you know, it's like these people are successful. It's almost like I, I, I, they have to participate or where does the career go? You know what I mean? Yeah, and it's like if I were her, it's like if Vanity Fair calls me up and they're like, we want to profile you, of course you say yes. So again, it's like my criticism of it all actually has nothing to do with Z-Way so much as it does this whole system, which this system doesn't really allow for proper criticism because if you criticize it properly enough, you will get a claim for your criticism and then it sucks you right back in. So it's kind of like the ability to actually... analyze this stuff without any sort of um cognizance towards clout is very difficult you're telling me i get called out for it all the fucking time you know i mean it happens you know if if if you could go to jail for not liking stuff i'd be doing hard time in the slammer um you know but that's that's where we are i i think and and i mean that stuff like but what happens in particular with her is like Does that go on TV eventually? Like what happens to that? Like how big could it actually get? I'm really interested because I feel like this is the moment where it's like you want to – it's like you feel like something's got to happen. You see her following growing so quickly. Yeah, exactly. But then the question is like does it go to like she gets a show on Quibi, which is like just this same thing? Or do you really parlay that into like a writing gig?

on a show. It's like, do you parlay the thing that people liked about this into something bigger or do you make this the thing? Doesn't she write for Desus and Mero? I believe she does, yeah. But it's like, do you take this moment and do you use the cachet that comes with this moment to do something aligned with exactly what made you have this breakthrough moment? Is this your thing or is this the thing that sends you on to the real thing? Exactly. I mean, you know. If we knew the answer to that, we wouldn't need a manager. Right. But like to her credit too, it's like, it's all about booking because it's like, again, like one thing I'm dealing with right now is like, so I had a friend, I don't want to say her name because it might happen, but a friend of mine was going to do the season two premiere of the show and we Instagram DMed about it and she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Reach out to my manager and we'll, and we'll get it on the calendar. And I just got this email from the manager this morning being like, oh, she has nothing to promote right now when she does. we'll set this up. And it's like, a tale as old as time. Yeah. It's like, that's not that we're not, we're not here to promo anything and we're just shooting the ship. But like, this is the thing. It's like these barriers exist that. One of the fun things about what she's doing is she seems to be circumventing barriers, and that will always be exciting to me. Yeah, no, I agree. I think that's a good way to look at it. Yeah, and I can circle back to the good version of a good guest on that is somebody who you can tell is excited and wants to be on there versus somebody who is going on there because somebody told them it's a good idea and that you can kind of tell. Completely. Evan, thank you for joining us, King. Thank you. I just want to say, like, I love this show so much. I am an avid listener, and it's an honor to be invited. Oh, no, thank you. Thank you. You're hilarious. God bless you. Yeah, this is great, honestly. This is very fun. So you said season two of your podcast comes out in September? September, yeah. But, I mean, anyone can backlog the first season because it's not time-sensitive at all. But if nothing else, I mean, yes. Evergreen content.

Yes, listen to my podcast, but more importantly, at Sarah M. Geller on Instagram. Hit that follow button for the real queen. We need to get Sarah Geller army numbers up. Yes, exactly. You're a very selfless person, Evan. Hashtag Buffy's army. Yes. And Evan, but where can they find you on Twitter and Instagram? You can find me on Twitter and Instagram at EvanRossCats. I'm trying to use Twitter significantly less, so I'm much more active on the Instagram and on the Instagram stories. Yeah, your Instagram is a good combination of a normal Instagram that somebody would have and then just pictures of hot people. Yeah, it's important. It's cool to do that. I just feel like hot people need representation, you know? It's about time they got a fair shake in this fucking world. Exactly, and I want to be a catalyst for that change. God bless you, Evan. Well, thank you for doing the show. We really appreciate you coming on. Thank you both. Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Bye-bye. Later.