064. - Irina Aleksander

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

TJ, what's Gucci, baby? What's up? You know, I just dried off after the shower, and I'm ready to go. I'm ready to pot. It's Sunday a little early. Yesterday, I kind of hurt my body a little bit with food. I thought you were going to say you hurt your body when I destroyed you on the fucking tennis court like it was child's play. after being defeated by you many times, I think whatever you put into your temple helped me win. That is, yeah, whatever I put into my temple helped me lose. I started off the day by having a slice of pepperoni pizza, and then that was followed by half of an Italian sandwich. um and then for dessert oh before that i ate a donut in the car and then for the dessert of the the pizza and the sandwich i had another donut that's truly that's truly disgusting and for you to admit that on mic is is kind of crazy i know and then i showed up showed up to the tennis courts you know 90 degrees and in the middle of the day and and whatever my body was not down with it you know it was You know, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be, but it was like I filled up the Porsche with apple cider vinegar. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just so used to using premium gas at this point. I get confused. Yeah, the gas is the stuff where the liquid comes out if you don't have a Tesla. Is that how it works? yes yeah if you're not an incel that worships elon musk then yeah you have a regular car um that's not quite as good for the environment but makes you look a lot cooler so it's your grave bro if elon musk makes azalea banks kill herself i'm gonna be bummed out honestly that shit is really sad i don't fuck with that

I've always been a big fan of hers and her outspoken nature. I think she's a refreshing blast of information on the World Wide Web in general. I mean, I don't care about her music, but I don't think anybody ever cared about her music. Sad. Fuck Elon Musk. Pray for TJ. How do you feel today? Because I felt exceptional, even though I did an eight-mile run that morning. I was somehow energized, and I think maybe if I get one on you, it pumps me full of adrenaline because I want to see you lose so badly. Well, thank you for that, my dear close friend. I think after the last episode, which was so very tennis-friendly and tennis-focused, I really realized yesterday how much of a mental game it is, and that is truly what I do love about it. It's kind of like when you do mushrooms or acid or something. They say you really have to get your mind right in the set and setting correct, or else you could have a bad trip. I think it's the same vibe with any cerebral sport activity like golf or tennis. you know running or anything like that where you really got to get your mind right or else or else you ain't going to be hitting them winners and that's what happened yeah your performance showed but luckily i i was able to pivot and recover by pulling up to Sweetgreen and picking up the Green Goddess salad full of raw beets and za'atar breadcrumbs. I'm a little upset I wasn't invited to indulge in some SG with you last night because I obviously had nowhere to be. I fell asleep by 9.15. Saturdays are a very tough day for my body is destroyed. But luckily, of course, I'm up. I've recovered. I feel good. I'm hydrated. I also showered.

I shower twice a day like a normal person. I'm probably going to shower twice a day as well, and I really don't enjoy it. It feels very inefficient to me. I wish there was a better way. It's summer in the city, baby. I know, and my girlfriend, she'll do a rinse-off where she'll just hop in. Yeah, women do that because of the hair issue because it takes so long to dry when you have a beautiful head of hair like Kate. Thanks for letting me know about that, Chris. Sorry, I don't think it's called mansplaining. Inside into the world of women. I don't think it can be mansplaining when it's a man explaining to a man. So sometimes ladies have long hair and water bad. Jason, if any of us is a caveman, it would be you. Not with the ladies. Not with anyone, dumbass. What do you mean? Yo, some chicks like a caveman vibe. I mean, that's true. Even in 2020, I bet they're out there. Yeah, they like a fucking juiced up gorilla head like me. That is you. Speaking of Joe Rogan, that photo that went viral yesterday of the fireplace, whose fireplace was that? It was like a real housewife or some shit like that? I don't even know. It was like an actress's... Oh, it was an actress. Where it would look like the Montezuma's Revenge. You walk through it when you're about to go onto a jungle amusement park ride. It reminded me of cancelled podcaster Joe Rogan's kettlebells. Yeah, his kettlebell... Onnit brand kettlebells that have gorilla heads on them. Which I don't understand, really. what what that why you would buy that i guess if it was the only thing available to you okay well let me you i need to educate you about a phenomenon that you might not be familiar with it's for people who have a little bit more of an explosive fitness lifestyle it's called beast mode and i don't think i'm sorry i've never locked into that mode before have i all right so beast mode is when you go absolutely fucking mental and you black out in the you know proverbial booth of fitness

And when you do it, I mean, if you ask, like, when do I know I'm in beast mode? Honey, you know. And if you have to ask if you've entered beast mode, then you certainly have not. I don't know if I've ever... It's like getting your first nut, you know what I mean? I don't think I've ever seen... I don't know what that was, but I do know what that was. I don't think I've ever seen you enter beast mode then. You know, actually, I think that when we used to work out together and do the box jumps, I feel like that's the time when we both really locked into beast mode. Well, you know, I guess you can come over and watch me blast off. Whenever I'm home alone and I do my full nude kettlebell. That's a little something called beast mode. How Pavel intended. Yeah, I just use an assortment of leafs to dry myself. God damn it. I would love to call 911. The only time I'm going to call the cops if I see you working out nude with a kettlebell. Then it's over. Just smearing Gatorade on my face like it's... Gatorade powder on your face like it's battle paint. Gatorade powder under my eyes like... You're about to go into the Super Bowl and throw a touchdown. Anyway, we have a great guest episode today. We do have a great guest. We did a timely booking is what I would call this today. Yeah, normally moving forward, we plan on having our Monday episodes be a one-on-one pod because we know that's a fan fave, but we had to do a last minute. We had to do a last minute. A timely episode. There was a big story this week in the New York Times written by Irian Alexander about, well, it's the cover story of the New York Times. It might be Irina Alexander. Is it? I guess we'll find out, won't we? Irene Alexander. It's the cover story of the New York Times Magazine. Sweatpants Forever. Sweatpants Forever, which is kind of based around friend of the show, Scott Sternberg, and his brand, Entire World, and how he kind of has handled the downturn. But it gets deep into the future of fashion and wholesale and return to vendor.

personalities and the CFDA and Stephen Kolb and Anna Wintour and if the industry as we know it is over, which is obviously a conversation that people love. I love how you say Wintour. Well, that's how you say it. It's like Louis Vuitton. Louis Vuitton. We're going to give her a call, and I think it'll be interesting to see how long the story took to report and all the ins and outs of it because I'm sure there's some stuff she couldn't use, and hopefully she'll divulge those details to me and Big TJ when we ask very nicely. Okay. Let's give her a jingle. Okay. Okay. All right. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web. So do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues. Obviously. Maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world.

writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian. stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Where are you from? Russia.

Okay, that was my guess, but I didn't want to be presumptuous. Yeah, so it's basically Irina in English and Irina in every other language, so whichever you prefer. Okay, great. Thank you. I can't remember what I said in the intro, so we'll have to go back and listen to that. I think you called her Ariana. No, I did not. I mean, not not. Irina Grande. I like Ariana. It has a nice ring to it. It's close enough. It's like a Vanderpump Rules castmate. That's true. I think that that's all our final form if we had our choice. You know what I mean? So it's not out of the question. Anyway, we wanted to have you on, obviously, because you had the hottest story of the week. Thanks. Maybe a week and a half. Maybe. No, I mean, honestly, it could be all of quarantine, I would say. I don't know about you. But I think that – so I work in the industry, so I'm familiar with at least a lot of the themes and the names and the people involved in the story. Scott has been on the show. Scott's my friend. So that part I really understood. But I also wanted to just get into the process of what something like this requires and how long it took you, et cetera, et cetera, because I don't think people really know how much goes into it. Yeah. Well, so I think this began like early April, I want to say. It was like early pandemic days. And I was supposed to be working on another story that I was just clearly, clear to me I was not writing, though not clear to my editor at the time. Meaning you weren't feeling it or it wasn't going anywhere? It was like I just kept reporting it and I didn't feel like I was ever done reporting it, which is when I would start writing it. reporting it for literally no reason, even though I should just stop and start writing. And then I, I don't know, there was something about like, I couldn't really find my way into it. And unless I can like see the structure of a piece ahead of time, I don't really feel like I can like sit down and do it because it just feels like a battle. Um, but so it was, I think it was early April. I was on the phone with my editor. I think she was trying to like talk me off the ledge about the other story. And she, you know, we started talking about pandemic things and she said, you know, what's happening in fashion. And

I was like, I actually don't know. I mean, I assume nothing is happening in fashion. Very little, very little. I think I even probably said, like, I think I'm in sweatpants like everyone else right now. But I had met Scott, like, last year at a wedding. And so I sort of said, like, oh, well, you know, let me, like, reach out to some people and, like, feel out what's going on right now. I didn't have his number, but I got his number through the mutual friend. And we met up in mid-April in his backyard. And I just sort of, I mean, my question was so nonspecific. I was just like, what do you think is happening in the fashion industry right now? And just that question alone, I mean, he made it so easy. Like once he started talking, it was like, holy shit, there's like a whole story here. And it wasn't just about his line. At first he was just answering my questions about like, well, what's hypothetically happening to like Proenza right now? You know, like what's happening to all of these companies that were already kind of on the brink? And just listening to him talk, I mean, he sounded like, you know, someone who had like escaped a cult. There was like an apostate. It was like, there was like this PTSD from like working in the fashion industry. what happened with band which you know i'd read when band folded like i'd read all those articles but i didn't feel like i had a clear sense of what actually happened um i think talking to him about that stuff is he's just so honest about it that it's kind of exactly I feel like most people try to pat it out or at least like veil the reality of it. But I think him, him and some of those stories are more are better than others. But I think that's why it's so appealing and so interesting and how it could open like a Pandora's box for you. Totally. I mean, he's so honest about it, which I also just find. to be so unusual in the fashion industry. Um, because I feel like for the past decade, it's like, you know, these companies are struggling, but when you ask them how things are going, they're like, great, everything's great. We're showing the next collection. And you're like, uh-huh. Well, that generation specifically, I think that, that you guys, that he talked about, like the Proenza and, um, Rodarte and, you know, that kind of, but like that era, um, it just seems like there's no room for that anymore. And what they did, it had a time and it's, it's hard to let go.

But I don't know if – there's always somebody looking to put money in and I think that's the thing though that he mentions too is like it's not that sexy anymore. You know what I mean? It's like putting money into a restaurant. Like you put in $50,000 knowing you're not going to get it back but you always have a table there to impress your friends. Exactly. It's like what is the end game for me if I give somebody $3 or $4 million to make clothes? Yep, totally. I mean that's exactly it. But, yeah, I think just talking to him, he was like this – it was like Paul Haggis leaving Scientology. It was like, holy shit, you know all these secrets and you're going to tell me them. Now, do you – but you have a background. Like you say in the piece that you interned at WWD at some point or worked there? Yeah. So, I mean, my background in fashion is not actually that extensive. I, in college, thought I wanted to work in fashion. And, honestly, after that internship at Women's Wear, realized I didn't anymore. I mean, it was, like, I think I like fashion as, like, a topic to cover, but I don't love the kind of culture of fashion people, I would say, or, like, the environment of that area of, like, journalism, maybe. How would you describe the people, please? I have to be really careful here. No, please, no. Why do you have to be really careful, though? Let it spray. Let it spray. Okay. I mean, you know, like I'm really bad at like small talk, I think. And that kind of like slightly bitchy, like party chatter thing that you're supposed to do all the time. And like the cliche of like that air kissing and the like trying to act. you know, quote unquote, like fabulous when you actually live in like a sad, sad apartment because you're spending all your money on like designer clothes or worse, getting them for free in exchange for writing things. I'm feeling attacked and we can end this fucking podcast right now if you keep going, okay? I told you, I warned you. No, I mean, I don't want to totally, you know, I mean, I love,

some fashion people. I really actually respect the industry. I was really careful. I wanted to be really careful, and I don't know if this actually came off, to this not be a takedown. I wanted it to be more respectful. Yeah, I don't think it feels like a takedown at all. I think it feels like a pretty honest look from people who are able to speak on it realistically and truthfully because they actually do it for a living. Yeah, and I love fashion shows. I'm sad that they're going away, even if they made absolutely no sense. I mean, they really don't make any sense, but I can't say that I've ever been to... I've been to enough fashion shows in my life where I've never... Maybe I don't like clothes enough, but I've never had my mind fucking blown. You know what I mean? It doesn't affect me the way that seeing a band play could. That's because you can't get into the good shows, Chris. That's probably true. That's probably true. When you're 10th row, when you're standing room only at a streetwear fashion show. Well, you know what I mean. I've heard people talk about it in this way where I'm like, damn, I don't think that could ever happen to me. Like that only happens to me with like music, maybe a movie, I guess. Yeah. Like I can't equate those things, but a lot of people do, you know, and I think that the work that goes into it is admirable, but it just doesn't affect me the same. Yeah. I mean, I would say that like some of those Marc Jacobs shows, you know, 10, 12, 15 years ago. I, it's like watching a really good movie for me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there's something kind of transcendent. I mean, maybe that's putting it too strongly, but like there's so much theater that goes into it that it is kind of just like a show on its own. I think I unfortunately get distracted by the guests and I'm unable to. detached like if if gunna is sitting in the front row smoking a blunt how am i supposed to pay attention to the clothes you know i think that's all part of it it's like somehow like that's the kind of like unexpected surprise performance aspect of it like you want miley cyrus to walk in and do something insane to like twerk on the runway or something like you want some weird i always want that i always her specifically yes i do i want that extremely badly thank you for noticing uh i i don't um

But but I think Mark as a central I mean, I think his his arc and the way that business has gone as the central part of the story is really good because he was bigger than life. And it wasn't that long ago that he had 250 stores, which is an insane amount of stores, insane amount of stores. Totally. But I think what I have a prediction that he's going to he's he's pivoting into being just like a great celebrity. Like he's such a fan. He's such a fan of clothes and he plays dress up every day. Like, I mean, you talked about him being at the Mercer wearing pearls. Like there was that 25 page system special of him jeweling in his house. It's just like, he's on another level of fandom, but I don't know. Do you think the business can survive? his business i mean i think what he uh needs to do is or not what he needs to do but i think what's going to happen most likely is that lvmh will probably hopefully put him at the helm of like a massive fashion house like he needs to be designing i'm actually stealing what scott said so this is not my idea but like he should be designing chanel realistically like he should be the next carl lagerfeld because there's no one else that's like on that level of intelligence and performance um yeah Well, also just like the cult of personality too, which I think is extremely necessary. And that's why I thought it was funny when you were describing fashion people. I find myself really attracted to the personalities in the business. Like I like who it attracts sometimes, but I know what you're saying about the air kissing. You know what I mean? That whole vibe in general. But I think that at a certain level, it also attracts people like Scott. You know what I mean? Or people like Mark Jacobs. Like people who are truly gifted and doing it right and have a good outlook on it. Definitely. Is this the most time you've ever spent with fashion like in your brain? No. Like just dedicating so much time? It's not. Okay. I wish it was, but no. I mean, so after that women's wear internship in 2005 or whatever that was. So I think I was still in college then.

And then I didn't really do much. I went to work for the New York Observer. That was like my first reporting job. And actually, Leon, who you guys have had on the pod, we were like cubicle mates. We call him, we only refer to him as elite podcaster on this show. So if you could just do the respect, that'd be great. Definitely, definitely. Elite podcaster. Elite podcaster, Leon. Got it. God, I want to be elite something too. One day. We do too. As podcasters who are not elite, think how hard that hits us. I'm so glad that you guys are not elite podcasters, that this could be a little more chill. Look, we have a chill approach to life, so it just comes through in our potting. You can be elite and chill though. That's true. I don't know if this will flatter you guys, but I still took a beta blocker before this, just in case. That does flatter us. And that's, I think that could go on our, that's going to go, that's a blurb for our jacket. You know what I mean? When the book comes out. You're welcome. Yeah. So, so after, so you worked at the New York Observer as a reporter. Yes. So I was sort of covering like, you know, there was like someone whose beat was like politics and media and publishing. and tech. And I was sort of the like wide pocket of culture, which was everything from like, you know, party reporting, celebrity stuff and fashion was like part of that. So I would go to fashion week, but New York observer was not like, you know, we weren't like Vogue. We weren't like, you know, I was in row eight or whatever. Um, and then after that, my editor went to the style section and I worked there. I was sort of like on contract informally for I think about six months, and I wasn't loving it. Nothing to do with the style section, mostly just the pace of it. It was too slow or too accelerated? No, it was too accelerated. I mean, I'm a very slow writer, which my editors do not like. Really? I'm so surprised by that revelation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I'm generally a little bit of a nightmare to work with, but that's one of the problems.

It's my slowness. We'll unpack the other reasons you're a nightmare later, but go ahead. Sure, fair. But so when I was at, when I was writing for Styles, Elle approached me about a fashion news editor job. And that was like the first real fashion job I'd ever sort of gone out for or even considered. And it was so much money, which is not that much money. No, I was about to say, but at the time. At the time, you have to understand, at the New York Observer, I think I was making like $30,000 a year. Even adjusting for inflation, not great. Yes. I still don't know how I did it, but we all kind of did it. Maybe by now I was making like $40,000 or $50,000. Wow. All right. So you're living in a two-bedroom in the West Village. Yes. Yes. I have a butler and a driver and a cook. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it's great. I afford all my own designer clothes. And so Elle approaches me about this job, and it's like $80,000 a year, like plus expenses and travel. And it just – like a part of me knew that I didn't really want to be a fashion editor as like my ultimate career goal. long form like magazine journalism um but it was just it sounded so great um and actually the friend that i worked there with is how i met scott last year because we're still friends um so l was you know and i was at l for about i lasted about six months maybe eight months in that job before i left and went freelance to do what i do now um but in those six months i would say that's the most fashion exposure I had. So six months, situate me on the timeline. What year is this? Sure. This is, I want to say 2011 through 2012. Oh, this is probably, that's probably pretty good. So did you go to Europe? Did you go to Paris and Milan and the whole thing? I went, I've got it. I've like somehow like totally blocked this out. I think I did go to Paris. I remember, I mean, this is where some of this stuff comes from. Like I remember Chanel flying me to shows. Like I, you know, like these brands fly you to their show.

My goal to be a Chanel girl is still there. Like, I want the makeup. I want the clothes. Oh, it's, I mean, I don't want to make it seem. If Audrey Gellman can get it, I can get it, I think. I'm aiming. That's where my aim is. It's a really good aim. I mean, I just want to clarify, I was not a, like, a Chanel girl in the sense of, like, Audrey brand ambassador type of girl. Sure, sure. But you were an invited guest, and they were paying for it. Yes, and they pay for, I mean, I don't know if I'm like revealing some dirty secret of the industry, but like they pay for most journalists who go to those shows. Oh, no, we all know. Us insiders and our listeners, the how long goners are insiders. So don't worry about this stuff. It's fine. Don't worry about them. Great, great. I'll just let loose then. The 25-year-old incels in Edmonton that listen to this podcast definitely know about Chanel. Don't worry. Perfect, perfect. So yeah, so I think that was like, I was traveling for that. And actually the first piece that I ended up doing for the New York Times Magazine was based on, it was about this male model who was like one of Karl Lagerfeld's boys. I remember that when we were looking into you for the show. I remember that article. It was so big, too. It was such a thing at the time. I remember that really well, and it's great. And that story is so, like, it's just so wild. Like, the whole thing is just so crazy. Yeah, I loved that story. It was so fun to, like, report and write. But that, I mean, I would have never found that story if it wasn't for that job at L because I literally met Brad, that model, on a plane coming back from a Chanel show. He was sitting next to me. And he just sort of started telling me about his life and showing me all these photos on his phone of him partying in his hotel room with Blake Lively or someone. And I was like, what the fuck is your life? Because he was also like, yeah, I'm going to get back to New Jersey. I'm going to pick up my kids from school. And then I'm going to take them to soccer practice. And next week I'm flying with Carl to Vienna. And you're just like, what? It's very insane.

Yeah, it was very insane. Was he very flattered and honored to have a story about him and his life? Did he feel like there was some final validation for him? I think he did. I mean, Brad is so, he's like such a nice guy that if parts of it bothered him, I feel like he wouldn't have told me, really. I mean, I could tell when it came out, he was like kind of psyched. And then I think as he started to hear from other people, responding to the piece, I think he started to realize that maybe some of it, you know, how do I put this? It didn't paint him in a bad light, but it was sort of showing like the pathetic-ish angle of like a male model boy toy kind of scenario. Yeah, I think he was excited by the narrative that was like, here I am. living on top of the world in a Rolex, but he wasn't so into the narrative of what happens to a male model in their 30s. So the parts that maybe made it seem like his career was at some point going to end, I think those parts were a little bit harder for him. Well, us aging male models don't like to think about that stuff. As I approach 38, it's something that I try not to think about, especially before bed, if I'm trying to get a good night's sleep. Thank God the hair is still there. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you to our sponsor, Roman. No, I'm just kidding. We also, you know, when we were doing a deep dive, we also discovered the Hills story, which I remember reading as well. And we are huge fans of that program here at How Long Gone. Oh, good. Good. Me too. Jason, my esteemed co-host, is a lifelong California resident born in Orange County. So he really, it really resonates with him. Oh, wow. So you like really know this world. I do. I mean, yeah, I mean, Laguna Beach. And then I also made that pilgrimage up to Los Angeles. And I did not begin working in fashion PR, but I did eat lunch at Toast and I would have bottle service at Les Dues. Jason is a former, Jason's a recovering nightlife personality who has rubbed elbows with the cast of The Hill many times during his tenure. And I think that the...

He loves Whitney. I'm more of a Kristen Cavallari. I would love for you to weigh in on that. I'm a recovering Whitney stan. Yeah, I have to say it's like Whitney all the way for me. Wow. So you're saying Kristen Cavallari, known mogul and mother, is somehow lesser than? So being a mother makes you a good Hills star? No, no. Whitney has a kid as well, unfortunately. With that crooked man. I'm just with that nerd. They all marry nerds, which is fucking crazy. But why would you choose Whitney over Kristen? I think it's exactly the thing that you admire about Kristen that I don't like. The ambition on her is so visible. And Whitney, it's like everything has just sort of happened to her and she has no idea how it happened. Wow, that's actually describing me and Jason. Now I understand. This is fucked up. Without the money, though. Yeah, no money and no kids, thank God. But even, like, the way Whitney talks, that, like, doe-eyed, up-talking, like, you know, slightly confused way of speaking. Like, it's just, she just kind of, like, happened into it all. Even though you know there must have been some thought that went into it. I would hope, but I think that that show just because I think we're probably around the same age. And that show was just such a juggernaut and like a timestamp for that entire era of my life, like how popular that was. Absolutely. How unavoidable it all was. But I think that the reboot did not. capture the hearts and minds of America. No, I'm really sad about it. I mean, I actually had a whole like backstory with that show that I, I don't think, I can't remember if I put this in a piece or just thought about, well, let's, let's get, let's get into it. So when I was, I think I was like about to graduate college, I went to NYU. So I was in New York and, um, I at the time had just started dating this guy who was writing for details.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. R.I.P. Wait, hold on. Did you read the Dan Perez memoir? No. No, I have not. It's the worst pill memoir I've ever – as a former pill head, it's the worst pill memoir I've ever read. But continue. I, like, can't imagine a memoir I would want to read less than that one. It's deeply uncool in a way that, like, shook me to my core. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And he likes pills a lot. Yeah, I just, yeah, I thought it would be cooler. All right, so you're dating a hottie details editor who wears a blazer with jeans. Not exactly, but sure, let's go with that. I was dating a freelance writer. Okay, that's fine. Who he subscribed to details. Yeah, yeah. We read details every day. It was our favorite magazine. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah, so he got assigned. This was like, I think The Hills had been on the air for only one season. The second season where Brody and Spencer get introduced hadn't aired yet. And he got assigned a profile of Brody Jenner for Details Magazine. Oh, God. At the peak of Brody's hotness. Yes. And no one in America knew who these people were yet. So they only had just met Heidi, and I guess they knew Lauren from the OC. But, like, Brody and Spencer had not been on television at all. And we'd been dating maybe, like, a month. Maybe two months. Not very long. I remember it was around, like, Christmas 2006, I want to say. And he was like, hey, I've been assigned this story in L.A. Do you want to come? Romance. Yeah. I'd never been to L.A., by the way. Like, I basically, like, never left the tri-state area. Are you from New York? Well, so I'm Russian originally and I immigrated to Coney Island when I was 10. So mostly New York. So you went to L.A. at the best possible time. Yeah, I was about to say, this is prime L.A. I hope you stayed. Did you stay at Sunset Tower or Chateau Marmont? I wish. No, we stayed at the Viceroy.

In Santa Monica, I think it is, or is it Venice? I don't know. No, no, it's Santa Monica. Interesting choice. Kelly Wurstler designed, I believe. Yes, yes. It has those, like, purple curtains. Yes, but that actually, I actually like this better for your experience, but continue with your story, I'm sorry. I mean, this whole experience, like, everything was brand new. Like, I'd never seen, like, all the cliches of L.A., like, didn't know anything about it. So we're staying at the Viceroy, and I think like day two, I come along with him to meet Brody and Spencer. Now, what's crazy is like being a magazine journalist now, I can't imagine bringing someone I've been dating for like a month to an interview. Hey, babe, we're going to the seafood place to meet these guys. Do you want to come or like you want to hit the pool? After a month, I wouldn't even tell my significant other what I was doing. let alone invite them to be there in person be like oh this is like my like i mean significant other is putting it strongly i'm not even sure we had like even had had a conversation about like what we were it was like i mean i was 21 probably um well thank god thank god you didn't have that conversation before you met two oc hunks exactly because then that could have put you in an unfortunate position exactly um so i I'm generally, like, you know, I don't seem this way right now because I took a beta blocker, but I'm generally, like, pretty fucking shy. Like, I don't, like, especially then, like, I was basically just, like, a mute the whole night for this whole experience. Like, I don't think I said it because I was so, like, I was, like, who are these people? Like, I've never met people like this. I'm, like, what is this weird building we're in? And then we, like, got into one of their, what is, what are those, like, Mercedes SUV things? You know what I'm talking about? G-Wagon. Yes, a G-Wagon. Thank you. We got into, I think it was Brody's G-Wagon and went to Mr. Chow. Oh, my God. This is the best night of my life. All right. The rest of this podcast is just you telling this whole story in as much detail as possible. Stretch it out as long as it needs to be. We're big Mr. Chow fans here on How Long Gone. So if you could remember the order. If you could remember the order, that would be great. I do remember the order. I can't wait to tell you the order because I just remember.

At this point, I am so poor. I'm about to graduate NYU. I have no idea what I'm going to do with my life. I'm living in an SRO in the East Village. You're living off top ramen and chopped cheese sandwiches in India. Absolutely. We go to Mr. Chow's and they order some lobster thing and some buffalo thing. Like, I swear it was called, like, buffalo meat something. That sounds like an off-menu item to me. I would go with the hand-pulled noodles. I would go with, you know, some other stuff. But sure. Sure. But I just remember just, like, all these, like, oh, and I think we started with, like, a bottle of champagne. I would imagine based on the G-Wagon and the time period, Cristal would have been the choice. Definitely. Definitely. It was definitely something like that. Like the tape recorder is on the table. There's like Brody Spencer and probably two or three other friends who in retrospect was probably like Frankie, if I had to guess. Frankie Delgado, Jason's co-worker, club promoter. Yes. We are not Team Frankie. No, we're not. We're not. What happened to Frankie? Doesn't he like do something weird now? Frankie doesn't look too hot. I know that. No, no, in the reboot. I've seen him leaving, you know, I've seen him leaving fucking. a restaurant on TMZ looking a little hefty with a trucker hat on. Frankie is somewhere doing something date rape adjacent. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I mean, yeah. I mean, we're all older. Justin Bobby doesn't have to date rape anymore though. No, Justin Bobby's cutting hair and making a living looking hot. Justin Bobby's amazing. We'll get back. We'll circle back to JB. Don't worry. So you're Mr. Chow balling the fuck out. Yeah, it's – and I literally – I remember what I'm wearing. I'm wearing this like dress from H&M that I thought was so cool and was like definitely not. And it was just like – I think I was even wearing like tights, which is not a thing you do in L.A., but was a thing you did in New York. It was like very normal. Well, this time period, I'm surprised there's not like a leather jacket involved.

I'm sure there was, to be honest. It was a dark time for fashion as a whole, though. It was. It was. It was that weird time between, like, low-rise jeans, but, like, before fashion got better. It was just, like, a weird in-between period. We all look bad, and we can all sympathize with you. Yes. Oh, you know, it was, like, the time of true religion jeans, wasn't it? We call those Truys on this show. Truys are a timeless garment that should not be besmirched. That's true. We'll let you slide. I won't do it again. I'll be careful. Maybe pop another beta blocker. No, I've got the bottle right here. I'll just do like one every 10 minutes. If we hear you start snorting, we're going to have to hang up. Okay, just so you know. I thought you guys were into pills. We are into pills, but beta blockers are a little light for me. Jason, maybe. If I accidentally fall asleep in the middle of this, you'll know why. Okay. It's not because we're really bad at our jobs. No, it's because of this anxiety medication. Too much beta. Too much beta. Okay, so you're a timid 21-year-old wearing tights and an H&M dress at Mr. Chow with all these rich hotties. Are you sipping the champagne? Do they offer you a glass? Definitely sipping the champagne and not speaking at all, I'm pretty sure. Are these people, are they super nice to you? Is everybody really friendly? They're basically, I am like furniture. No one is acknowledging me whatsoever, which I actually find to be really helpful. Which was probably welcome for you. Absolutely. The one time that I think Spencer tried to talk to me, I was so nervous. I didn't know what to say. Because I also, like, I couldn't, like, I had no reference point for these types of people. Like, being from, like, New York, New Jersey, like, Spencer Pratt is such a unique animal on his own. But then, like, I don't know. There's just something so specific about him. I remember during dinner, this woman comes over to the table who is, like, full of, like, injections and, like, plastic surgery. And then I realized it's Brody's mom.

Who happens to be eating dinner there at the same time for like reason. I was like, wait, like his whole family just like comes here and runs into each other. Like it's fucking cheers or something. Yeah. Welcome to LA, baby. It's the good life. Yeah, totally. Keep the G wagon up front, you know? Yeah. What are you doing here, mom? I mean, it was something like that. That conversation went something like that. She was there with like her friends, you know, drinking champagne also. And at the time, did you think that Spencer and Brody and these guys were like cool, hot people or were you turned off by their whole vibe? I think I mostly just, it was more like anthropological than like I'm into this or not into this. Like I wasn't grossed out by them exactly. I was like so. that I didn't want it to end. I wanted to just keep observing them for the rest of my life. I just felt this voyeuristic excitement about being in proximity to such a foreign world, I would say. That's why reality TV is so powerful. I love reality TV. And you still seem to have that love in your career as what you're writing about today. Yeah, I mean, I like people. Weird people from worlds I don't really understand. But after dinner, we went to the clubs. I think we went to Hyde. Oh, shit. There was bottle service. I'm pretty sure we went to, was it Ledoux? I actually, I'm not sure what the second one was. You know what it is? I think it's Area. Yes, another. We went to area. So first we went to, yeah. Must have been an off night, but yeah, go ahead. Were you getting litty? Like, were you doing Patron shots or are you just chilling? I am slowly sipping on probably like a vodka soda. Very mature of you. Yeah, well, so, well, yeah. I mean, the story doesn't end well, but I remember during bottle service, this guy, what is his name? He was on Entourage.

Is it Kevin Connolly? Is that possible? We're talking about E? Yes, E. E comes over and mooches off their bottle service, which was such an entourage move for someone who actually, like it was, it already felt like entourage and here was like, it felt so meta and weird. So he kind of did the stop and chat, hey, how you guys doing? And then without looking, he's fixing himself a cocktail E style. More than once. More than once. More than once. He's mooching off the Belvedere. E is a bottle rat, is what you're saying. E is a bottle rat. Then I think to show off for probably the article, Brody texts Lindsay Lohan. I just want you to know Lindsay Lohan during this phase is my number one of all time. So please continue. Sure. I mean, she's basically at her height, I would think then. Right? Like 2006, Lindsay? Speaking of leather jackets, exactly. Yes. Yeah. So this is when she was partying hard. Yes. I remember Brody said something like, watch this. I'm going to text Lindsay and she's going to show up. And then that happened. And then that happened. And then I do remember Heidi showed up. That was like the first time I met her. And she was like pre-plastic Heidi. So like very, she had like pigtail braids and seemed very like sweet and innocent. Yeah, that early Heidi was really actually kind of sweet and nice. She was really like cute and like girlish. It's just, yeah. And then anyway, I'm not going to, this story can go on forever, but where this ends is where we, when we got to area, I don't know if I like, I don't think I drank too much or if I was just like overwhelmed. I don't feel like I was drinking actually very much, but basically at some point I fainted at area and it was horrible. Oh man. It was awful because basically. We've all been there. Yeah. But like, you know, if you faint at a nightclub like that and you're basically like,

People just assume you're on some cocktail of drugs. I think you're lying and you're in a K-hole, but we're going to let you do this. I wish I was in a K-hole, but I was in a reality TV hole. Do you think there was a chance that you were drugged? No. Because we know how Connelly can be. Sure. No. I'm pretty sure my drink was in my hands the whole night. No, I honestly like I don't even remember being like tipsy or drunk. It just felt like like I was jet lagged and we'd been like out for hours and hours and hours. And I was I don't know. It was horrible. It was horrible because then you had people like Brody and Spencer trying to help you as you're like passing out in a nightclub. Yeah, that's not the crew I would want. They're used to it. Yeah, that's true. I mean, did your, so did your man at the time was like, babe, don't embarrass me in front of the guys. No, he was, I mean, he was just sort of like, I mean, I don't, I was trying to hide it, right? Because if you know you're about to faint, you don't want anyone to know you're about to faint. So I was like. I could tell he was like mid-reporting the tape recorder was out and I didn't want to like disrupt anything. And I was like, I'm going to go over there for a little bit and I'm totally fine. Just like do your thing. And I think I just like sat down at some table and like put my head down until I felt better. And then later, I think, I don't remember what Spencer said, but I remember him saying something that implied he thought I was like on drugs. What a dick. It was horrible. Luckily, he did not remember this when I interviewed them last year. Did you not tell them? You didn't regal them with that tale when you met them again? I didn't at first. And I think later when I had a one-on-one interview with Spencer and Heidi at their podcast studio, where they were interviewing Sheena Shea. Oh, God. Then I brought it up. I said, you know, you probably don't remember this, but we met very briefly 15 years ago. And he remembered it.

um he was like oh my god you were like that person um so yeah damn wow that that honestly i'm sorry i just hijacked this podcast with that whole story are you kidding we literally begged you to tell us that story yeah yeah like i could that that is exactly what we want this show to be that i can't believe how on brand that entire thing is happy to help honestly shocking um But I don't think, yeah, I do think that era is just, I think reality TV is turned into something different now. It's really different, but it's interesting. Sorry, I just interrupted you. No, no. It's interesting. Like, I'm sort of into the evolution of it. Like, I mean, now I watch Vanderpump religiously. I'm over it. Let me just go on. Really? I think it's bad now. Okay, tell me why. New characters are trash. Old characters are trash. There's no like – it's also like we know they're rich. You know what I mean? Right, right. So it's like the guise of working at a restaurant is not – it's not real. That's fair. You guys are rich and you bought ugly houses in the valley. And like Jax has a vintage Mustang. Like you're making hundreds of thousands of dollars an episode. I would guess they're making $100,000 an episode at least. yeah no that's fair i mean i do think the appeal of the show early on was that it it had that like bravo like housewives sheen but then they were poor and that was amazing like the fact that they lived in those like shitty apartments that was the whole that was yes that the bad behavior mixed with the with the poorness was what was appealing yeah it was great i think what the reason i have so you're right that the new cast members suck and I mean, look, Brett is hot. Don't get me wrong. But he literally has had a lobotomy. That's true. That's true. I mean, I guess I like that they – I don't know what's going to happen without Stassi and Kristen because I do feel like they're like core important cast members. But I like that they –

are like continuously breaking the fourth wall, like that they're including like, I sort of like the evolution of reality TV in this like postmodern direction where the cameras and producers are increasingly in it. And they're like talking about the show on the show. I find sort of compelling. I agree with you, but I also think that's all they, that's like the only thing they can do because there's no growth left. But I do think there's a small uprising of people that believe Below Deck is taking the reign. So I haven't watched Below Deck, and I need to. Well, let me tell you, it fucking slaps, okay? Really? Yeah, I mean, it's not going to – I don't think – it's already segmented into different Mediterranean. There's already a few shows in the franchise, so I don't think it could – it's not as holistic as Vanderpump Rules is in that way. Like there's a whole world of characters already is what I'm trying to say. So it's like, I think that kind of, well, I just mean, I think that like draws people in in different ways for Vanderpump Rules. Everyone was focused on this one show. But, you know, look, we'll see. I mean, my King Andy has got the golden touch. So, you know, it's very possible that he could, you know, bring something to the table that trumps it all. I mean, I hope so. I mean, God bless Andy Cohen. He's like, the amount of content he's created that I've consumed in the last decade is just, I don't know. How have you handled quarantine? Quarantine's been weird. Do you live in LA, Irina? I do, yeah. Oh, you do? What's really good? Yeah. You play tennis? What's good? Where do you lunch? I actually really want to play tennis, but I don't currently. I want to learn how to play tennis. Yeah, I'm open to the idea of learning to play tennis. What neighborhood do you live in? I am currently in Silver Lake, and I actually have to find a home because I'm homeless in like 10 days. Wow, that seems urgent. It is urgent. It's very urgent. I don't know when this comes out, but maybe someone will be listening who has an apartment for me.

Well, it comes out tomorrow, actually. Oh, perfect. We timed this perfectly. We had your big story hit in print today, and it comes out tomorrow. So we're going to not only promote your work, but also find you an apartment. Wonderful. What are we looking for for our new L.A. crib? I am looking for a place on the east side. Ideally, I used to live in Los Feliz, like right below Griffith, which I loved. It's impossible to find something in that area. Walking distance tomorrow? Yes, yes. It was above Los Feliz Boulevard, but walking distance to Little Dom's. Goals AF. Yeah. It was my dream place, and I had to move out. But this was a couple years ago. But I'm looking in, I'd say, Silver Lake Los Feliz. I would go to Highland Park. No, no, no. We draw the line. We hate this. I know. This is an anti-Highland Park podcast. I mean, I get it. I feel like everyone who works in podcasts lives in Highland Park, don't they? Would you consider a move to Glendale? You know, it's funny that you ask that because I was just considering that this morning. Why don't you come on down to Glendale? Jason lives in Glendale and I tell you what, he loves it. I mean, here's the thing. I love Glendale as like a place to go. Nice place to visit, wouldn't want to live there? I don't know. I mean, I don't want to say that. There's something about Glendale that feels so familiar to me. Like, I don't know if it's like. Is it all the Russian people? It's definitely the Russians and the Armenians and the Jersey vibe and the big mall. I mean, the Galleria and Dintai Fung are like, I want to spend all my time there. Now we're talking. The amount of G-Wagons per capita in Glendale exceeds that of anything that Brody Jenner is putting up. I'm sure. I'm sure. I mean, I love that whole vibe. Like, I feel like if I get sad or depressed, I just drive to Glendale. Welcome home, honey. Wow. Thank you. Glendale is your Beverly Hills. It is. It is. It really, I mean, I would, most days I would much rather drive to Glendale than Beverly Hills. Me and you aren't the same.

I guess, you know, I've always coming from Orange County, I've always yearned for that hybrid of like the city life mix in with some of that suburban comfort of, you know, everything's going to be okay kind of vibe. Thanks to retail and restaurants. Definitely. I mean, I don't know. I don't want to like offend LA people, but I feel like once I moved here from New York, it's just like. Like the people who live downtown, I don't really get it. We also hate downtown. It's unbelievable. I hate downtown. Like why would you live? And then people say things like, it's like I live in New York. I have like exposed brick. And it's like, but you don't. But way more piss than New York. It's just awful there. It's not cool. There's nothing cool down there. And it's hotter. It's awful in every way. I mean, I guess like, you know, sometimes. Going there for a restaurant or something is fine. We only go downtown for Dover Street Market, but I understand what you're saying. If you listen to this podcast and you live downtown, click that unsubscribe button. Yeah, we don't want your ad dollars. Don't buy a Manscaped because we told you to, okay? So I feel like the big upside of moving to LA from New York... And I won't list all the other cliche reasons, but that you get to live in like a really wonderful suburbia. Like you get to like drive to the Galleria and you have a car and everything is just like easy. And it's like early retirement. Early retirement is a way that I've never heard it explained. That's the part that I don't want to offend people. I don't know if that's necessarily a pejorative. I think some people like to be an early retirement kind of vibe. Definitely, I do. I mean, for me, it's a wonderful thing, but I know that there are people here who are like, we work really hard, and it's like, okay, sure. I'd love to find those people. Do you have a microscope? I've never fucking seen them. Some people were born retired, and that's us. Yeah, all those people sitting at LaMille on their laptops.

Oh, that's my nightmare. LaMille on a laptop is my nightmare. I know. I can't even like make eye contact with people when I walk in or used to walk in. Thanks to the COVID-19 virus, you guys might have your wish granted as they will maybe most likely never open their doors again. Are you guys happy? Okay. Okay. Relax. How long have you lived in New York? I mean in LA, I'm sorry. I mean like officially I'd say about like three years, unofficially maybe like five. I sort of moved in the most ambivalent way possible where I didn't even admit to myself that I was moving. Just like Chris. No, I am here right now. I'm currently displaced by choice. I see. Yeah. I mean, I said I was displaced by choice. Displaced by choice? What is that? I mean, who says that sentence? Well, because of the COVID-19 pandemic, Jason, we're saying new sentences all the time. Did you move? No, I was displaced by choice. I just think this is a better place to be for my physical fitness. And right now that's high on my list of importance to keep my mental strong. Yeah, I mean this is how I felt in 2015 when I started coming here, that this was important to my mental, physical well-being. Where did you wait? We never finished where you worked. Oh, right. Sorry. I keep jumping around. I know you were – so you were New York Observer, then Elle, and then what? So then I went freelance. So basically I was at Elle for like six to eight months or something. And I think I was like 27 at the time. And I just could feel, so I loved the people I worked with. And Elle was actually like pretty fun. It was just, I couldn't like answer the question for myself of like why I was doing this. Like, you know, the like sifting through handbags and figuring out which one was like newsy to put in a certain issue. I wish I don't suffer the same. Sounds great to me. But it was all – I can't – it was like – I shouldn't say more about this. No, no. I understand completely. I mean I just think that sometimes like writing about clothes and talking about clothes is not fun anymore. I think that's totally okay. I love talking about clothes. I also love writing about clothes. What –

There's something about when it becomes your job that you get paid for. Similar to what I was talking about in the piece, you just become part of the system that doesn't entirely make sense and seems in some ways, corrupt is too strong a word, but not well formed or something. Sure, sure, sure. There's something about it where you feel gross too often. And that's the part that I felt like I couldn't do. And and separately from that, I felt like ultimately what I wanted to do was like long form stuff. So I just kind of decided that I was going to go freelance and not have a job. And I sort of I mean, this sounds very like young person idealistic, but I was like, OK, if I don't make it by 30, I'll go and get a job. And I think I spent the next three years like. I was sort of freelancing, and then I think that male model story came out right when I turned 30. And I was like, okay, I feel like I can do this for a bit. And look, you're doing it right now. You're thriving. You're talking to Anna Wintour on the phone. On Zoom. On Zoom, don't forget. What was the vibe? Oh, my God. So I also write for Vogue sometimes. So you've got to be careful. You don't want to bite the hand that feeds. You know what I'm saying? Yes, yes, exactly. Big publishing will come for you and there won't be much left. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, I felt like I had to talk to her for the piece for obvious reasons. Agreed. But I was also scared too because she, you know, in a way sort of signs my paychecks sometimes. It's just a weird position to be in because you don't, you know, people say she respects journalists. So you don't want to like pull punches. At the same time, you kind of – I actually do respect her a lot and am a fan. I know that's a controversial opinion probably now, but I'm not one of those – We're team Anna on this podcast. Okay, great. I'm not one of the people who is like, Anna needs to go. I really – I genuinely think the minute that Anna leaves Vogue, it's just over. But maybe that's too cynical. I don't know. I don't know if – I just don't think that she could –

like relinquish any control for it to like change in a good way. Does that make sense? Like I just, I feel like it's going to be her show or someone else's and I don't know if it could be someone else's and she couldn't just, she couldn't just like make small changes on a day-to-day basis to make it different. And that's, this is not going to happen. Yeah, I think that's probably right. If we follow the Devil Wears Prada algorithm, what you guys are saying is correct. Yes, and that's kind of my north star for all things fashion. Same. So you bang Anna on Zoom. What did you wear for this? Okay, so they didn't tell me it was going to be a Zoom until 15 minutes before. Oh my gosh. Which was really stressful. So your glam team wasn't even there? No, I mean, I probably hadn't showered. I probably looked like Howard Hughes. I mean, it was like, I just... I was like nowhere near zoom presentable. Like I was on deadline. I had all this reporting to do. You know, I'd already probably, by the time I spoke to her, I'd probably been reporting it for a few weeks. And yeah, I mean, I was completely unshowered. Like it was, it was horrible. I knew we had a phone call scheduled. They scheduled it the day before. I forget what time. Oh, they tried to schedule it for 6 a.m. L.A. time, which was insane. Yes, I love that. Are you really about this life or not? Wake up. Let's go. And I said I couldn't do it, and she brought it up during the Zoom. That's so sick. I know. Because she was like, oh, you're in L.A. That's why you didn't want to talk to me at 6 a.m. And I was like, no, I had another commitment. You were like, bitch, take off those sunglasses and let's talk about it then. I had a soul cycle, Anna. Chill. Yeah. You know how it is, babe. I was busy. So, yeah. Basically, so her assistant emails me and is like, Anna doesn't have great service where she is. Do you mind if we do it over Zoom? And what I wanted to say is, can we just do FaceTime audio? But that seemed like an obnoxious thing to say. Yeah, I think you just got to let it rock. Exactly. You just have to let her decide.

If her East Hampton compound doesn't get great service, then I'm sure the Wi-Fi will do. Yes. So I basically just, everything that was in camera view, I just sort of like pushed to one side of the room. There was just like piles of like. sweatpants and potato chip bags and like wrappers and i mean it was just empty adderall bottles definitely all my pill bottles all my liquor bottles it was just like this pile this shame pile in one corner and i quickly i like put my hair in a ponytail put on for some reason i decided the only thing i had time to do was put on eyebrow liner So I did that. I don't know a lot about makeup, but that seems pretty low on the list. It is. I was like, okay, this I can do well in 10 minutes. What brand did you use, if you don't mind me asking? It's Chanel, actually. Oh, interesting. Interesting twist. I know. I feel really lame now. Well, you're in the pockets of big Chanel. A Chanel girl never feels lame. I'm paid by Chanel on the side. So this is nothing is more. Look, nothing is more chic than Chanel. Even if it's even if it's the licensed beauty products, you know, who am I to judge? Yeah. Yeah. So your eyebrows, your eyebrows are on fleek and then the camera comes on. Well, and I threw on a cashmere sweater really quickly because I was in like a wife beater. I love what color, like a nice cream. Exactly. Jesus Christ. I really fucking do this. Okay. So you're wearing, you're wearing a cream cashmere sweater. Your eyebrows are done. And how long are you, what is Anna wearing? Um, she was, you know, it's interesting because in the weeks, in the week prior, she was Instagramming all those photos of herself in like a track suit. So I thought, was it Tori sport? My favorite? I don't remember the, maybe, no, I don't think it was it.

Well, you know that picture of her running in the woods that kind of went viral? That was Tori Sport. That was Tori Sport. Yeah, that's the picture I'm thinking of. I remember her also wearing those, like, the stripy sweaters. Yes. Anyway, I was expecting that. I was expecting, like, pandemic Anna. But she was pre-panded. It was like a, you know, very dressy. dress with a necklace kind of like the way she looks in the i don't know if you guys watch global conversations but that version yeah yeah okay so she has a zoom she has a zoom look whether it's a global conversation just to chat with her friend well and here's what's i mean we're definitely not friends i wish we're friends but um this is the horrible awkward part of and this is why i hate zoom so They ask me if I can do Zoom. I say, sure. They send me a Zoom link. I click on it. I'm there first. And I assume when someone asks me to Zoom that we're doing video unless I've been otherwise notified. Then she joins the Zoom and her camera's blocked. And I have this moment of like, fuck, what do I do? Do I block my camera to meet her where she is? What if she was expecting this to be non-camera Zoom? And by leaving mine on, I'm sort of like pressuring her to turn hers on. Wow. This is a real peek into your mind. Yeah. I mean, I felt like it was like a Larry David moment where I was like, fuck, I'm just, I don't know what to do here. So I did nothing. And then she turned her camera on. I think as a reporter, it's better to just get the eye contact. I think you made the right choice. I mean, you're not exactly making eye contact with her. Well, what sunglasses does she wear? Do we know? Is it Chanel? I'm actually not sure. I don't know. How do we not know that? Because she wears the same ones, right? I think so. Yeah, I somehow have no idea. Do you think she's blind like Stevie Wonder is? Like a lie? Or do you think she just does it for the look? I think... Is there a rumor that she's blind? No, no, she's not blind. She's not blind. I feel like I know why she does it, but I feel like I shouldn't say this out loud. No, no, you have to say this because I have theories too. I've been told that she's worn them for so long that her eyes are now really sensitive to light and she can't go without them. I mean, that makes total sense to me. That seems like a bullshit excuse to me. Agreed. If you're listening, Anna.

I hope she never listens to this. Don't worry. Don't worry. Rest assured, my friend. Rest assured. Don't worry. What is your theory on the Sunnies? So Anna is from this generation that's like the Hillary generation, right? Like power suit, even though she doesn't wear power suit. But like you're supposed to present yourself as a powerful woman. And, you know, Carl wore sunglasses because he felt like... When you age, it's the age around the eyes that's the most. Yes. You can tell. Telling, the most telling. Exactly, yeah. So I think it's the combo of those two things. I think that if you keep your sunglasses on, you know, I don't know how old Anna is. I'm not going to speculate. But, you know, she's been doing this job for a long time. She's got to be 90 by now. Yeah, at least 110, I would say. So everyone in fashion seems to be deathly concerned with their aging process. I don't. Yeah, no, totally. But I mean, I think you're right. That's probably what it is. Yeah, that makes sense. But unfortunately, I think the power aspect of it comes off. Maybe not with her because it's like a signature and same for Carl. But if I started showing up with sunglasses on, my friends would be like, you fucking idiot. What are you doing? Like that doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't fly unless you've been doing it for so long. So I feel like that is over. I feel like she is the last person that's going to do that. Yes. I mean, I don't know. I wonder if like young people can still make like a fashion thing like that part of their like persona. Well, I feel like, I feel like TikTok e-boys like want to show off their eye makeup and stuff. So they can't wear sunglasses to block that. Chris, if you start paying us like Carl paid his boys. I will gladly be a yes man for your eyeglasses journey. Yeah, I mean, we can think about that. We can talk about that once this ad dollars really start hitting. When you're Zooming with Wintour, do you have to ask her permission to take a screenshot? Or do you just take a screenshot? This was another horrible, awkward thing. So, you know, there's a record button on the Zoom, right?

And I knew at this point that if you click that button, it'll ask the other person permission whether you can record. So instead of using my tape recorder, I thought I would just use that. And then, you know, I have this amazing video forever. Show the grandkids. Yeah, exactly. I had consensual Zoom with Anna Wintour. So I said early on, I was like, do you mind if I record this? I'm just going to use the Zoom record. And she said, no, of course, that's fine. But then she looked away from the screen. So right when I hit record, whatever prompt she got to give her permission, she didn't see. So it like didn't work. That's a power move. She knew exactly what she was doing with that move. I know, I know. It was kind of a bummer. And so then you can't really like screen, you can't do anything. She looked over at the pool boy and called for a Diet Coke right at the wrong moment. But you did not just take a regular screenshot. What? No. How could you not do that? Because how do you do it without her noticing that you're doing it? Well, I mean, like the computer, like I just took a screenshot of our conversation right now. Did you know that I did that? I do. I just heard you hit some keys. Yeah, but you didn't know what he was doing. When we record this podcast, we do it with FaceTime and it'll show video sometimes and every once in a while we'll post a screenshot of Chris and our guest. Oh, am I supposed to have my video on? As like a social media asset. No, no, no, not at all. It just happens sometimes and no one is the wiser. Right. Yeah, I mean... I feel like this actually just reveals how like not tech savvy I am. Like I know I can take a screenshot, but I somehow don't know the keys that I hit without looking it up. Yeah. I guess I would, I would probably, you know, if I had Wintour on the other line, I would just err on the side of caution and not try to fuck with anything, not hit any keys on my computer at all. Yeah. How long did you have her? I think it was about 30 minutes. Damn. Okay. That's longer than I thought.

Yeah, it was actually really long. I was surprised they gave me that much time. And then later she answered some questions over email. I love the shade she threw at Scott. It was so good. I know. It's so good. It's incredible. It's precision. It's literally a doctor in surgery, the shade that she threw at Scott. I know. I was really on the fence. I knew I wanted to use what Stephen Kolb and Virgil said, but I was really like, I knew it was such a good line and I wanted to use it, but I was just like, ah, is this like too? is this too much? Is she going to feel like I'm making fun of her? Is it a low blow? But I sort of felt better after talking to a friend who's like, no, you're just reinforcing the whole September issue personality. Yes, that's what I was about to say. You're feeding into what she wants, I would think. Yeah, and that made me feel better because I was like, okay, great. I'm actually like, this is on brand for her versus dressing her down in any way. Also, Virgil's quote is amazing. Virgil saying what's he up to these days or whatever it is is so insane. Where did he go? Entire world is, at least in my world, in my circles, pretty popular. Everyone I know either owns something or is very aware of the social media aspect. But I think Virgil is one of the designers, I think he's even said this, that he's one of those people who tries not to look at other stuff because he thinks it will influence him badly. Which is interesting because he just got killed for like ripping off what's his name. So I don't know what the – I don't know. He pays other people to look at stuff. That's what Jason – that's what you do for me now. I just decided. But yeah, I think that some of those quotes are iconic. And I think the thing about the CFDA – Jason and I were talking about this a little bit. But it's like so archaic and seems kind of useless to most people that I think the way Kolb handled it too was a little bit like – it didn't, I don't know. I just didn't like it. Well, right. So like you, you had asked me, I think your first question was like, how did this piece like come together and stuff? I mean, there was, there were so many conversations I'd had with people off the record with things they didn't feel comfortable saying publicly, but a lot of that essentially boiled down to what is the purpose of the CFDA? Yeah, a hundred percent. It's like, what, what does that do? What is the point? Why do I have to pay them money?

Exactly. And they charge so much money. No, it feels dated in a way that like not embracing someone like Scott now and with this venture because it doesn't feel like big enough or important enough is exactly the issue. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of how I felt. But yeah, I mean, Stephen Cole was really nice. I mean, we talked on the phone for like an hour and I didn't want to go too hard. I didn't want to be too. hard on them but at the same time it's just like so plainly obvious so yeah I mean I don't think you had to do anything I think they do it to themselves that's the thing you know what I mean oh wow thank you for joining us this was great yeah of course was that it you really gave us the motherfucking tea we went from no other podcast is going to take you from Anna Wintour to the hills in one hour let me tell you that right now this was so much easier than I thought we try to make it easy for you I was so anxious. No, please. No, I mean, honestly, it's great. I love the story. I love a lot of your stories. So it was fun to talk. And I'm glad that I'm glad that you gave this information to the world. I think that also the power of like something as big as the as the Sunday magazine is like stories like this. like regular people can understand this does that make sense like it's it's not it's because of where it is and how you did it it's not so insidery that it doesn't it'll be able to penetrate to everyone and i think that that is like a really difficult thing to do when you're talking about an industry that's so insular and so kind of like it just keeps people out um so i think you succeeded there and hopefully my dad will understand this Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I was trying to, my like secret model for this was the big short. So I was trying to explain it like the subprime mortgage crisis. That's a great, that's a great, that's a great way. That's a great way to look at it. And that makes total sense. Cause I, I, that, that's the only way I understood that shit is from that movie. Totally. Me too. Last remark, who, who are maybe a couple of designers that you think might change the future of fashion for the better?

Oh, I have no idea. Copy that. Great to meet you. I wish I had like a really smart answer for that. But no, I have absolutely no idea. That's fine. Yeah. She said, Jason, your little broke ass can figure that out. I'm going to keep wearing Chanel head to toes for you. Oh, God. I mean, I wish I knew. I don't know. I feel so out of the loop with what young kids are doing. I'm sort of at the stage of life where I learn about bands from SNL, so it's like I don't know anything about stuff now. Okay, Boomer. Yeah, wow, damn. Sorry. Also, before we go, you are a Virgo, correct? Yes, how did you know? Well, we did a little research, and we're also Virgos, so we like to embrace our own on the show. What's your birthday? September 9th. There we go. I'm September 14th, and Jason is September 4th. You're right in the middle. I can't believe it took an hour for us to get to the Virgo thing. We should have just talked about Virgo stuff the whole time. If you would do us the honor of sometime down the road joining us on this show again, we can do a deep dive into our celestial upbringings. I would love to. That sounds fun. Excellent. All right. Don't overdose on beta blockers. Have a beautiful LA Sunday. How many copies of the paper? Did you buy a copy of the paper this morning yet? I haven't. I still have to like go to Gelson's or wherever it is I'm supposed to find it. I just went to the Daily Planet next door to Villa Carlotta where I'm staying and picked one up. So you got to buy it. They had a few left. So make your way over there. You got to buy at least three for the archive. Perfect. That's what I'm doing after we get up. All right. Enjoy. Have a good day. We'll talk to you soon. You too. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Bye guys.