391. - Ben Gibbard

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Them jeans. Them jeans. What's up? How Long Gone is back. If you just are listening to us for the second time because you discovered us from our 1975 episode. Welcome, all depressed 19-year-olds. Thank you for joining us on How Long Gone. You won't stay long. If you have a 1975 tattoo, go ahead and shut this podcast off now, and we'll just see kind of who's left after the bodies are sorted out. Jason. How are you feeling? Because I've had a crazy morning, Chief. I'm feeling okay. Yesterday, I was able to do, you know, you do three days. I did a, I did a, or two a day. I did a three a day yesterday. So I'm feeling, I'm feeling good and sore. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hold on. A dog walk doesn't count. So what did you actually do? Because I'm, I'm confused. I know you have a lot of free time, but still. There, of course there was a dog walk and I try to get my sporty and rich dog walk in every morning. I think it's good for not only the body, but also the mind. I don't know if you can wrap your head around. on that theory. I'm more focused on soul, something that I don't think you have. You know, I have... so much more soul than you, Chris, and I'm not even a soldier. Do not slander the killers on this podcast. You all will not stand for it. That's only slander if you want it to be, Chris. Take a look at the man in the mirror when you're talking about... Oh, now we're going to reference Michael Jackson. This is a bad day for you, Jason. Keep going. Look, I know that a lot of Stereogum listeners are listening to this episode right now, so I have to sort of appeal to that demographic.

Yeah, I'll have to let them know that music is life. Not just for you. Yeah, if it involves pavement, then it's life. Everything else is just details. The morning was kind of like a stretch sesh, you know, movement, work. I got the bands. I'm doing the lunges and I'm blah, blah, blah. And then I went and hit some balls on the lobster. And then after that, I went to the gym and had a pump. Okay. And then a sauna. I'm proud of you. That sounds great. It was great. You should be proud. I'm jealous. I got up on my... 40th birthday and did a 6.30 a.m. workout with Hunter where he tried to injure me. It felt like some of the weights that he was suggesting. He tried to add a few more years onto your already aging body. He was adding years and plates. You know what I'm saying? It was a tough combo. My legs were torched, but luckily Shinobu came over in the afternoon to kind of give me a B-Day rubdown. Oh. Did he do the special spot again? He did the special. spot again, which this time seemed to be between my shoulders, which now is feeling bruised and immobile today. For our listeners at home, when he said shoulders, it was obviously an air quote, but you guys can't see that. It's an audio-based podcast. It's in my shoulders. It's between my shoulders. Do not... Don't lead people to believe. When he says it's between my shoulders, he means it was between my gutters. Take that for what you will, however you want to decipher that. Take that for what you will. That's good. It sounds like you were doing your 40th the right way, man. I know. Then we finished with the little John and Vinny's bad boy dinner. Luckily, I was able to somehow finish my Jim Lettuce salad, even though Kodak Black was hurting my ears. Look, if you're hearing Kodak... at John and Vinny's, consider that a blessing. It could be a lot worse. That's the best you could, yeah, at least it's not Kanye West. But the thing about it that I think is funny is that Alex pointed this out. She was like, this might be the only restaurant in the world where I'd rather sit in the shed than inside because you can't hear the hip-hop. And I was like, damn, that's a great point. That is a great point, and I may agree. I may agree with that. I think the goal is to one day get to the point where

You're so powerful that you can walk into John and Vinny. This transcends Kim K and Skeet. This is real power where you're like, I'm going to pick the music in here. Or just turn it off. Turn it down. Yes, right away, Mr. Black. Mr. Black, anything for you. But then because of my torch schedule today. I had to run this morning at 5.30 a.m., Jason. I was out on the streets. I was out on the streets in pitch black darkness, and I have to say it was absolutely incredible. Your life is not a movie. Your life sounds like an REM video. It was. Yeah, I didn't cry, weirdly, but I did feel like I was hovering above Earth. Interesting. So are you saying this may have been where soul meets body? Oh, don't do that, Jason, but it might be. Damn, Jason. You know I didn't want to do it. But we do have some important topics to cover, not just my 40th birthday or our fitness routines, but Roger Federer, who in his later years, unfortunately, has been wearing the ugliest shoe ever made. Is he on boys? What is it? He's on boys. He's retiring from the game of tennis. One of the best players of all time, a beautiful stroke. We're sad to see him go. Yeah, he was always my favorite kind of legacy pro to watch. I always liked his style and identified with it more than any other player. I'm glad you identified with him because you don't mimic it in any way, but I guess you still got some time to work on that. I'm also bad at the net, okay? But yes, with his retirement comes hopefully the retirement of On Running's foray into tennis onto the court. We're going to pray for that. On Running is the new and one, and we can't wait until Nike shuts them down. Exactly. Great documentary reference. And another news. Twink of the century, Timothee Chameleon is on the cover of British Vogue. And Jason pointed out that it looks like a late 80s cover of Marie Claire. He can't just place it. And I think that's a very, very astute observation. But in terms of cropping of the image down to the hairstyle, he has the hairstyle of, you know, some of our older listeners might, you know, like a character, a female lead from Dynasty or Love Boat is somewhere.

That our man Timothy is resembling. Yes, I just don't like it. And I think that I had this. So I did this business of fashion. Designing women. Yeah, it's very designing women. I did this business of fashion kind of live panel on Zoom earlier this week. Shout out to all the BOF members. It was really fun, actually. And it was with this guy, Chris Morrency, who. is running this thing called Vanguard's Group, which owns several brands, and then Daniel, who wrote a story about the menswear market. We reported that the menswear market was sizzling hot just days before. It's motherfucking on fire. We had to break it down even further, and Timothy got brought up, and I was like, well, the thing that people aren't realizing is that even if he's gender fluid and bending the rules and blah, blah, blah, he looks bad, and I think we need to prioritize. Why can't we just say, Like, it's okay to swing and miss. Like, Harry, when Harry's on stage wearing that shit, it, like, makes sense because he's on stage. When he's walking on the street wearing it, he looks bad. Like, it's okay. When he's at the Panera drive-thru. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, when he's at the Panera drive-thru in Garden Grove. With his sequin blouse. Yeah, the sequin blouse. There's a moment. It's like anything else. It's like if you see a woman wearing an insane, you know, outfit in the middle of the day, you're like, that looks bad. That's inappropriate. Why can't we say that? These guys don't. They can't look good. all the time in a backless hater ackerman top like that's not like yeah well that was that's a red the red all red get up that you were talking about and somebody said that they look like a he looks like a real housewife who just arrived at his um surprise birthday party that he planned for himself that's exactly what it is though it's like and not what are you guys doing here but yeah i just think it's okay to say like timothy chamelay has looked bad Every time he has been in front of a camera for as long as I can remember, like even when he wasn't trying, he would look bad in a different way. And I just like at least with Harry, like you see Harry on Instagram when he's recording the album and he's wearing like jeans and a T-shirt and he looks cool. Yeah, I guess without without anyone critiquing or feeling like they have an open form to discuss and critique something. These stars will never learn, you know, if they're never if it's.

If it's offensive to look at the game tape and be like, we made some mistakes here on our hemline. Maybe we can just change the color up here. Purple's not good for your eye shadow. Whatever it is, that's how you learn. When gay baiting is more important, gay baiting is prioritized over actually looking good. I think we've found a problem. And speaking of looking at the man in the mirror. Obviously, I've had multiple breakdowns when I've realized this, and I'm kind of coming to terms with it. And I also will be kind of changing my look, and I will be going back to kind of a classic working-class stolen valor in the near future. So thank you for your counsel, Jason. It's been helpful. First one's free. First one's free. The next time there'll be an invoice on the other end of it. Negging me has finally paid off for you after all these years of being friends. Negging me has paid off for you, too. That's right. But on a headier note on the subject of gay baiting, it kind of... As we're sort of entering, this is sort of like the first or second 1.0, 2.0 of the world of gay baiting in mass. And I think we're starting to see a trend where somebody like Chalamet, he might be gay baiting because somebody told him to, like a PR team or a management, or just he had the smarts to do it. people might start realizing, like, is your gay baiting rooted in commerce? Are you doing it because you feel like, oh, I can make a lot of money off of my gay baiting? The gay market will love me and I'll be able to find success there. Versus, you know, a pure traditional gay baiting of just, like, I'm just a straight guy who enjoys the adoration of a gay person, of a gay man. You know, like, the way a gay person... enjoys me it feels good and that's it i would never gay bait for profit and you know that jason don't you know what i mean i i worry i mean i i want to think that's true chris i want to think that's true but I think that we both might be guilty of it, and it's time we do a little spring cleaning. Okay. No, look, I'm glad. Think about what we have done and haven't done and who we haven't done, more importantly. Yeah, we're going to talk about this. I mean, I was hoping to bait fully into getting maybe like a grinder advertisement, but I guess that's not going to happen. We do have a guest today. Sniffy's is paying attention. Sniffy's is looking. We do have a guest today. Jason, we're going with the triple OG.

Ben Gibbard, you know him from Death Cab for Cutie, your favorite band for the last 20 years. You also know him from Jason's favorite band. Postal Service. The Postal Service. Wow, I blanked on it. That's okay. I'll clean it up in post. That's how much I like Death Cab for Cutie. But Gibbard, they've got a new album coming out. Asphalt Meadows is actually out tomorrow. This is good timing. Yeah, this is great timing. Gibbard has been running 100 miles at a time. He's a sober king. He's written many songs that we all know the words to, and he chooses to live in Washington, which I think is an interesting thing about him. Must be a tax thing. Yeah, and I want to talk about his head of hair as well, just getting into the important how long gone stuff. He's had a lot of evolutions over the years. He's had a lot of great haircuts in the public eye. He's had a lot of haircuts in the public eye. I don't know why that's making me laugh. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. If you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash howlong for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, even on a nice holiday, now available in Canada. That is quince.com slash howlong. That'll get you free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash howlong. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace.

Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do all our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. the news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world and i know you particularly have quite a lot of questions a lot of questions but how often because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot how many times do they do three times a week and i i have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do that's just a guess the guardian is not some billionaire owned They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen.

Thank you for joining us today on How Long Gone, Ben Gibbard. What's up, bro? How are you? I'm good, man. I'm just in Los Angeles telling everybody that will listen that we have a new record coming out. Yeah, we usually don't catch guys like you in the heat of things. You know what I mean? So the fact that How Long Gone, probably your favorite podcast, is kind of smashed between other interviews. It does feel good. You got Kimmel after this and Fallon and all that stuff, I'm assuming. Yeah, I'm out here talking to all these assholes. But I'm like, finally, I get to fucking talk to you guys. It's like a highlight of the week. Talk to a couple of different assholes. Different assholes. They're uglier versions of the guys that have TV shows. That's kind of what podcasting is. That's not true. That's what podcasting is. That's not true. But I know – so you're in the throes of things right now, but you and I were emailing earlier this summer, and you were going on a holiday to Europe, I believe. Did you make that mistake as well, Ben? Yeah, we hate travel. So I just want to see how it – I just – because you said that you were – I can't remember how you worded it to me exactly, but you said that you were – It was like a vacation, but you were also going to be running. Yeah, I do this perverse hobby where I run long, stupid distances in the mountains. And most of my vacations tend to involve that as least a component. So my wife and I were in Copenhagen for a couple of days, and we were in Chamonix, France for 10 days. So we would hike and run all day and then come back and just crush food. and sit in like very nice pools of water and so on. Okay, all right. So your vacation sounds better than ours because ours had like... We had to move a lot, and Italian food is bad. You know how it goes. So you're saying to me that you found a wife that is into the same perverse shit you're into. Is that what you're saying? Or did you slowly break her down over the years and get her to participate in your ultramarathon running? I have a wife who is very tolerant and supportive of this dumb habit and can be bribed with wine.

wine and uh and nice hotels and spas along the way yeah uh she's more than willing to participate i mean she's run a couple she's run a couple ultra marathons okay uh you know she likes hiking and being out in the mountains and stuff so you know we kind of like we kind of settle into a conversational hiking pace when we're out there and then i go off and do my own okay this is this is cool because i like the fact because i also like to buy my way out of problems and difficult situations um so i think that we we have that in common because i do think something that most people can relent to is a nice hotel you know especially in a foreign land 100 yeah and and you know it's like they're you know it's like i i feel like we kind of toggle my wife and i toggle between like this highbrow lowbrow existence where you know we're it's like let's go out and get really filthy in the mountains and you know eat weird food and then let's come back into the city and put on nice clothes and be bougie as fuck. Right, right. Let's shit in the woods and then go into the 10,000 thread count sheets at the Mandarin Oriental. Yep, that's 100% my life. That is what my life is. It's an amazing way to live. And I also like, there are some similarities because Chris himself, he also is a sober workout maniac like yourself. And his life partner is not sober. But I like the way that you've sort of – do you have any tips on how to sort of manage and wrangle that? Obviously, you're bribing her with the poison of alcohol, which I think is a good idea. But any other – any speed bumps along the way to get to where you're at now? Before you make any suggestions, I would like to say that I think that we're probably in different tax brackets, so kind of consider that. You know what I mean? Chris, there's a lot of – I have a lot of great bottles in the 20 range, if that's better for you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. And they are available by the glass. Yeah. Okay. Good. I, you know, I think, I think, I think the one piece of advice that I would give to people is like, you can, I believe you can be a sober person with somebody who, who drinks so long as they are not a heavy drinker to alcoholic, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, and, you know, I, I mean, I got sober in, well, California sober in 2008, I quit drinking. And, and, and I, and I kind of like had this, I kind of had this like,

i i you know i had had other friends get sober and they'd kind of go into this tactic where like if you walked into a room there could be no alcohol anywhere for anybody to have and as a musician in a band with other people who you know drink socially and stuff like that that just felt like a really ridiculous ask and so i felt like when when rachel and i got together it was kind of like yeah you know like it's like i'm not gonna bring my I'm the one with a drinking problem, not you. And, and you know, my, I, I'm a pretty, I was, I'm a pretty like, you know, all or nothing person. If the ultra running is not any indication. So when I quit, I just went cold Turkey and was just like, you know what? I'm not doing this again. And I haven't since. God bless. Amazing. Well, so what did you, so this, this ultra running shit, cause like, you know, like, like Jason said, I'm a pretty extreme athlete myself, but this, the shit you're doing. Sounds like dangerous, bro, if I'm being honest. Have you had to be airlifted out of any mountain ranges, or are you good? How do you prepare for this? Has anyone ever wrapped your body in aluminum foil? I've never had to be airlifted, knock on wood. I carry a transponder, like a Garmin in reach with me when I go into the backcountry. You've got to make sure that you're with someone else. I've had a couple wild animal run-ins, but nothing that involved a fist fight or anything with the animal in question. Thankfully, they knew better than to fuck with me. I'm a grizzly bear. I don't want to be staring down the business end barrel of a Ben Gibbard coming right at me. Are you kidding me? Yeah, you really don't. The word is out in the grizzly community. You know, it's what I'm picking up. Sure, sure, sure. No, no, no, no. Let's just go to the next one. It's just not worth it. No, no, no, no. Leave him alone. Leave him alone. Let's get the smaller one. It's just not worth it. Don't be a hero. I mean, I even forget about those challenges. I just mean that I'm obviously more focused on the limitations of the human body, which is something that you seem to have kind of levitated above. Oh, it's not so much that. It's just that, you know.

I'm very aware of my limitations and kind of my level. Like, I'm not an alpinist. Like, I'm just a runner. So, like, I have friends who do crazy alpine shit and go deep into, like, you know, climbing, like, rainier. twice you know for fun yeah and that's that's not my bag like i'm i'm just like i'm not i'm just a regular average joe who runs 100 miles a day like everyone else i'm just a normal person i'm just a normal person i know you're a normal guy and you can play guitar it's fucked up bro leave some for the rest of us okay uh now do you i want to talk gear just for a second not to get too crazy but what do we What footwear are we wearing? I don't want to blow up your sponsors, but what footwear are you wearing? Because I have a lot of opinions on this. I just wanted to see where you're at with it. My go-to trail shoe for the last year or so has been the Brooks Cascadia, which was kind of one of the first trail shoes back in the day. They kind of went through a period of some pretty bad design and kind of got laughed by a lot of the other shoe companies. Nice pun. Yeah, exactly. They've got really great designers right now. They're kind of coming back into the fray with some great shoes. So, yeah, that's my goal. And are you wearing tights? Are you wearing shorts? Like, what is the story on the bottom? I'm just like a shorts guy. I'm not like a Euro tights guy. I'm just like a shorts and a shirt guy. Just like a very, you know, nothing fancy. Okay, and how are your nipples feeling? You know what I mean? Are you getting a lot of chafing? Is there blood? Are you able to kind of work past that? Oh, you've got to tape the nipples, my friend. You've got to tape them up. That's right. I knew it was coming. I use Nippy's. Thank you to our friends at Nippy's over there on Amazon.com. And I'm not even running long distances. I'm just wearing funky fabrics. Let me give you a tip that will save you a lot of money. Just buy a roll of 3M Durapour tape and use that instead. It's so fucking cheap.

It's like a whole role will last you two years. No disrespect to the people at Nippy's. I'm sure they're, you know, I don't want to be taking money out of the pocket, but I'm just saying like, it's, it's, you can, you can, it's, it's really, you don't need. You don't need a gear-specific solution to this problem. You just need some, like, 3M or 4M tape. Will the 3M tape also work for my goth nights when I take my shirt off and kind of go that style, or is it clear? Yeah, see, it's white. See, that might not work for you. Yeah, you're going to want it. In that case, you might want that. Good for the black lights, Chris, maybe. Walk me through the nipple hair. Does the hair get pulled out? Are you hairless down there? I'm a manly man, so you've got to be careful in the positioning of the tape. You've got to put the positioning of the tape. You've got to make sure you get it right on there. Otherwise, it's going to be kind of a whole thing. No, for sure. I've dealt with some stuff. All right, this is good info because I like it when adult men have hobbies. You know what I mean? Because as a musician, there's a lot of downtime, as you know. There's a lot of downtime. There's off years. I'm sure you're always writing, of course, but is this your main focus, or have you really gotten to your hobby bag as you've gotten older? Do you mean is running the only thing I do, or do I have other hobbies? Yeah, what else? Because I bet you've got some other freaky shit going on, let's be honest. Are you playing Angry Birds? Ceramics? What's going on? Are you making bongs? God, I should start making bongs, shouldn't I? Really, given the state of the news, music industry these days, you really need a side hustle, right? And maybe bong construction. Artisan kind of bong construction. Maybe I can get them on Etsy or something. But only for tobacco. They're only tobacco. Of course. I guess it's kind of weird because you're saying everyone needs a side hustle because of the state of the music industry. But I also think in the state of just content in general, I feel like you went from being... Ben Gimbert, a legendary musician for decades that we all enjoy, to being like, once everyone found out that you run a lot, then they're like, oh, we have a thing to do a story about. I'm sure you've got a lot of press about the running in the last few years compared to the music, unless I'm wrong. I think that the kind of running I do is such a niche thing. I have a whole community of friends and acquaintances that I've met through the sport that

I, you know, it's been a really nice kind of counterweight to my identity as a musician, you know, and also it's like, you know, being in the music industry, you're kind of being in bands, you kind of run the risk of being around people who are exactly like you all the time. And it's nice to have this hobby that kind of gets me out of my headspace, gets me out of my ego as a musician and allows me just to be like a shitty runner, you know. So, yeah, I mean, I get a couple of those here and there. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, thankfully, people. they still are interested in, at least some are interested in the music that we make. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Not necessarily a bad thing. No. So then in the running community, the only thing that you really have in common with your comrades are that you're all sober, I'm assuming, or there's some type of psychological disorder that's going on? Yeah, well, we fall into three categories. We're either sober, like... Type A, you know, like advanced degrees, everything is planned to the 11th degree kind of thing. Or they're like insane people, like truly insane dirtbag people. Or just textbook insanity. Yeah, that's the three, you know, the kind of like, yeah, I live in my truck. I sell grilled cheese sandwiches. That's my job. I live in a trailer. Those are the three types of people who do this sport. Jason and I play a lot of tennis. We don't encounter a lot of van livers in our sport. That's something that we could aspire to. I sell grilled cheeses. I follow the dead. In the next six months, I will murder my partner. That's what my plan is. That's the trajectory. What are your feelings on The Grateful Dead, Ben? Because a lot of guys our age come to all of a sudden like the Grateful Dead, and it's something I personally cannot understand or comprehend. Dude, I am 100% with you. I have a lot of friends who, in the last five years, have turned to me and been like, have you checked in with the Grateful Dead? Have you really listened to Dead? I'm like, yeah, I've listened to Dead. No, man, but have you really listened to Dead? You've got to listen to York 72. I mean, that's what you've got to listen to.

And, like, look, if you like The Grateful Dead, if people listen to this thing about The Grateful Dead, that's fine. Like, there's plenty of music out there for everybody, but I have just never given a shit about The Grateful Dead. I have tried many, many times. You gave it a shot, but you don't give a shit. Exactly. I've tried, too. I've tried, too. And even John Mayer can't make me love them. My guitar hero isn't enough to bring me into the fold. Well, and if John Mayer can't do it, who can, you know? Exactly. Exactly, Ben. You get me, bro. You get me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I just kind of feel like, you know, it's like they don't need me as a fan. It doesn't matter if, you know, I think like, I think I kind of, I kind of reject this idea that why should you say like, it's okay to not like something or hate something. That doesn't mean that the thing is inherently bad or valueless. It just means that you don't like it. And music is so fucking personal that like people get offended when you say you don't like them, their band, or you don't like a band that they love. And it's like, look. Millions of people love the Grateful Dead. That's great for them and the Grateful Dead. I don't have to participate in your weird jam culture. I just don't want to do it. I agree. I recently found out about a band called Goose. Have you ever heard of this? I have not, no. Okay, good. John Mayer did this live stream from Montana, and I watched it, and it was on this network called Nugs.net. And I'm like, no, this is all real. You're a member of the music business. You should know about this. Well, describe what Nugs.net does. It just live streams jam bands, basically. And it's like it's doing very well. So I make fun of the name of it on Twitter. And then, of course, my friendly followers like inform me that Goose, this young jam band, has kind of made a name for themselves. by covering Drake songs on TikTok in a jam band style, and then they stream their shows, but they have Trey Anastasio will come out with them and play. So they've got the seal of approval, but all of this was new to me, and I feel like it was a little bit of a blind spot in my knowledge. Yeah, that sounds like something that would be happening right now, and I have to say that as much as I might be kind of like,

i'm expressing my dislike for the grateful dead you have to give it to jam bands because they have found out a way to continue touring without ever making new music that's right that's like well i guess just to clarify like the new music they're making are the jams they're doing on stage so there's not so there's so so if there's not this there's not this necessity to like like a band like us so it's like you know yeah we could go on a tour without a record but Really, to be on the road, we need to have a record out. That's kind of the criteria because we need new songs to play because we're not just going to play our old ones but 15 minutes long with guitar solos, which honestly, as I'm saying it, maybe we should start doing that. It doesn't sound too bad, honestly. It would save me a lot of work. Yeah, that's a cool idea for you guys to just pivot to a jam band style. You're not a jam band. You're just kind of co-opting the style of show. That could be good for you. I've tried writing songs. It's tough. It's better to do it this way. Yeah, I mean, there's also like, you know, one of my favorite bands, which probably is obvious of enemies from our records, is Build Still. And an interesting thing has been happening with them over the last 20 years in that the jam band community has found them. Really? And they're kind of like jam band adjacent because, you know, Doug can play the shit out on the guitar and likes doing these kind of long solos and stuff. So, you know, their fan base, when you go on their shows now, is this interesting amalgamation of like... indie rockers, people my age who grew up with them, and then people who love widespread panic. It's an odd mixture. As a lifelong BTS fan, how does that make you feel? It makes me feel great for them. Anything that keeps Doug out in the world playing music and making records and playing shows, I'm good with them. I've long since let go of this idea of ownership. of my favorite bands or artists and recognize it. Like, yeah, like, you know, it's like, I think when you're young and you find, when you're a teenager or a young person, you find a band and they speak to you, right? And when you're that age, you haven't done much yet. You're kind of, your life's still kind of getting going. So the, your personality has made up a lot of the things that you like. And then, and if you like obscure things, that makes you an interesting person, right? But if the, if like the captain of the football team is like singing along to Nirvana.

that, that kind of throat, that kind of, that's kind of like a, you know, there's like a disconnect there between your sense of identity and individuality and, you know, maybe the kind of person that you do not want to associate with at that point in your, in your life, you know? And you're like, I got to start listening to some more throbbing gristle fast because these fucking jobs are losing my buzz. Yeah, exactly. This is bullshit, bro. Have you guys – we just had the 1975 on the podcast earlier this week. I didn't realize this. They had opened for the Stones. And I was, you know, over the years, have you guys done a Red Hot Chili Peppers tour that I don't remember? Like wild boy shit like that? Or have you luckily missed it? U2 maybe? Yeah, I could see U2 for you guys. We did a tour with Neil Young in 2008. We opened for Neil. Shit. Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Pearl Jam took us on tour back in the day. We actually were, I mean, it was a weird pairing, but we were invited to do some shows with the Stones about four or five years ago. And it was just logistically, impossible and would have been fine. It would have cost us a lot more money than we were making. And it was like, yeah, you know, look, I would love to say that we opened the Rolling Stones, but not at the cost of tens of thousands. I want to have sex with Emily Ratajkowski, but I don't want to pay for it. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's like, I mean, I could for that price, I could buy my entire family. VIP tickets and a private jet to get to the Rolling Stones concert. You're like, I can meet Keith Richards another way. I don't have to lose this much money. I won't get booed that way. Think of our band and think of us opening for the Rolling Stones and how hated we would be in that context. A bunch of 60-year-old hedge fund managers being like, what the fuck is going on here, bro? It sucks. Pearl Jam is another interesting. They're a jam band now. They put out live records all the time. That's a big part of their community as well, which I didn't see. I'm always surprised to see that. They put on a passionate live show, Chris. That's why. People love them. They've always been marijuana adjacent as well. Yeah, that's true. They're definitely marijuana adjacent. That goes a long way in the jam community. Speaking of marijuana, you mentioned being Cali sober.

uh could you explain exactly uh your flavor of cali sober please yeah i'm like a uh i'm kind of a the occasional indica gummy before bed kind of user uh you know it's like i i don't i don't really like smoking that much and i don't really like being it's weird to say this but i don't really like enjoy being high that much at least not when i'm expected to be a functioning person like i don't i don't understand how people go through the world high all the time i mean it's i guess you know people do it right but um But yeah, I'm just kind of like, it's usually like, let's put on this, like, let's put on a movie and I'm going to eat this gummy. And then right when I'm starting to get a little too high, it's going to be time for bed. That's kind of my vibe. Yeah. Okay. That's good. I mean, sometimes the world is just a boring place and it gets better with drugs. That is true. Yeah. I think we learned that over the last couple of years, right? It's very beneficial for us to be living in states that had legal weed. And I think also too, like, you know, since it's been legal, it's been really great to see kind of the curtain pulled back on like, who uses cannabis? you know it's not it's not just dudes and rat t-shirts you know like you know like it's not heavy metal parking lot it's like It's every walk of life, and it's very beneficial in moderation. That's right, and thank God, because podcasters would be lost without it, right, Jason? I don't know where we would be if you weren't able to. I haven't been able to edit an episode of a podcast sober in months. I mean, the thought of it is asinine. Yeah, it would be bad for everyone. Yeah, Ben, I feel like by the time this pod is done, we have a lot of founders and CEOs in the cannabis space who listen to this. the show so i'm sure you'll get a few pr emails we'll get some indica gummies sent over to the house real quick don't worry and maybe we can have our own you know death cap strain or something like that we'll talk after the show all right so that'd be great if we can get that going that'd be that would save me you know tens of tens of dollars you still live you live in seattle right i do yes now did you ever live in new york or la or have you always stayed there

I lived in LA for three years from 2008 to 2011. Um, uh, I was, I was married when I lived here. And then, you know, it was kind of a leap of faith and I, I moved back to Seattle. I kind of, I was like, okay, I'm never leaving Seattle again. This is my home. I think like, I think people have those realizations where like they kind of get a little stagnant and they're what's Seattle is essentially on my hometown. Life had gotten a little stagnant and I was like, you know, my life had taken a crazy turn and I ended up in LA, which was, you know the last place a lot of people ever thought i would be um and i enjoyed it and you know i i got a lot of weird happened uh when i was down here and then you know i was when i was driving home kind of you know kind of divorce haze i was like you know what this is good i belong in seattle this is my home like i'm never leaving again how do you look at how do you look at your kind of uh courtship with like true celebrity was that like not for you or was it just kind of a fun thing to do for a little while and then it was over and it's all good uh you know i kind of i kind of chalk that period of my life up to like you know just a massive leap of faith yeah and and sometimes those things work out and sometimes they don't you know um and you know when you know zoe and i were married we moved very things moved very quickly you know quicker quicker than i ever than i had ever i'd ever moved before um and you know it was There were some very good times and some not great times, as one might imagine. That's just how it goes. I just think that the added pressure of the situation, and especially if you're someone who's like, this is funny, but I don't love it. Do you know what I mean? very famous people uh in a in a town that feeds off of very famous people um it made me question why anybody that famous would live here you know like i i mean i i had a friend you know a very very well-known friend who was driving their car down the street in la and a bike pulled out in front of them and crashed to the front of their car and they got out of the car like oh my god are you okay

And the person popped up with the camera and start taking photos of them. Like the moment that that happened, I would be like, I'm getting the fuck out of here. Like I'm not living here. This is madness, you know? But for whatever reason, I guess, I guess there's kind of the people, some people have lived with it so long that they just kind of learned to deal, I guess, you know, but thankfully I'll tell you, this is, I'll tell you, here's a good story. Like I was, I was in LA living here and I was like, i was in i was in some fucking like shopping center whatever looking for whatever i was looking for and it was like the kind of place that had paparazzi it's like an outdoor mall right sure we love those we love those here maybe americana perhaps yeah exactly yeah and like uh and you know like there's a pop so guys with cameras paparazzi kind of like hanging out you know looking for somebody to take photos of and i see one of them like see me and he turns to his friend and he's like i can see them talking and they're like what they're trying to do is like i think i know who that guy is like I'm not quite sure. I think he's married to so-and-so. Is this guy worth the film? And it's digital, right? So the guy just kind of goes like, I see, this is a true story. I see him shrug to his friend, pick up the camera and go, snap, snap, and then put the camera back and continue with this conversation. And I was like, that? He threw a couple of courtesy snaps away. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, that's... I was like, okay, it's like I'm flattered a bit, but that's an indication of my level of celebrity, or I should say more so my level of how adjacent to celebrity I am. Yeah, I mean, if this was film, I wouldn't waste it. But, you know, yeah, I got whatever. I got like a big memory card. I can erase these later. My card ain't full. It's all good. It's all good. I got 128 gigabytes here. I think I'll be fine. It's been a slow day at the Grove. I mean, like whatever. It's fine. I guess nowadays when you guys are traveling and touring all over the world, what country do you experience that sort of celebrity level fandom? Like where is it? Like South America is a big one for a lot of bands. I don't know. Maybe.

japan or something well the first time we went to the philippines in 2012 we played a show and we pulled it and we got to the venue and we came out on stage and it was like pandemonium it was like beetle mania i was like oh my god this is wild and there are people there are people at the hotel i guess a lot of bands don't go there right well there's more to the story so like so you know it's like it's like it's like pandemonium it's like you know people are screaming i can't hear And the people at the hotel, they're chasing us in the van. And we kind of turn to each other like, wow, I guess we are very famous here. This is kind of like kind of feeling ourselves like I guess we should come back to the Philippines. We're very famous here. I think I'm going to like the Philippines. Exactly. And so we come back three years later and we're like, here we go. Famous in the Philippines. And we're headlining this festival. And we show up at the festival. And like there are some local bands playing who are just like bands from around the corner, basically. And we notice that the crowd is doing the same thing. Like they're doing the same like screaming, yelling, like Beatlemania thing. I was like, oh, I see. This is just how it is here. We had this like we had this like kind of like specific experience in a bubble outside of knowing anything more about this culture. So we kind of thought that was fucking hilarious that we were telling people back at home, like we're really famous in the Philippines. I mean, we're like the Beatles back there. And it's like, no, if you play music on stage, this is how people act. Probably any band gets the same reception. Exactly, yeah. So, no, we don't, there's nobody, I mean, I don't know. We've always done well and... Germany for some reason, but the German people are a little more subdued. They like anything with the word death in the name over there. Yeah, and they want you to play for a very long time. That's also something that they want their money's worth. They want three encores. That's what they want. We were warned about that that first time we went over there. It's like, you got to put in the work.

They expect a long set. I've never heard that before. Three encores is too many. No offense to you. You guys got songs, but Jesus Christ. By the time we get to the end of the set, we barely have one encore. The idea that we're going to do three is like, alright guys, if you guys want to hear a couple deep cuts off the first record, I guess we can play those. We can do that if we have to. On this program, we often ask our musician guests about a legendary sink that they either made a fortune on or turned down and regret and i'm sure you have many of those stories from both death cab and postal service you got a t-mobile commercial something like that oh i see a sink i i when you first said it i was thinking like of an actual sink we're not talking about any kohler products whatsoever yeah sink with a y yeah you know i just recently and not that long ago um we the poll service turned down a sink with an airline company owned by a country that is not exactly cool when it comes to civil rights. Cool. And they're not exactly cool with queer people or women either. So we were like, you know what? Let's, I think we should probably, we should probably, I think, I think we can live with. How much was that Emirates? How much was the Emirates check going to be? Yeah. How, how much are we talking? Cause like this, it was, it was, it was a good, it was a, it was a, it was a solid mid six fingers. Oh yeah. For, yeah. For a song that you guys wrote, what almost 20 years ago now? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it was, it was like, it was like, let's. you know, we can build the pool in the backyard now kind of money, you know? Uh, but yeah, no, it was just, it's, you know, would not have felt good about it and would not have. And if you were looking at it from a merely kind of, uh, position of self preservation, um, it would not have been good in the world for us to take that money. And how awesome it must feel to be in a position where you can turn down, you know, a mid six figures payday for.

Truly doing absolutely nothing except hitting yes on an email. Yeah, I mean, that's 100% not lost on me. I mean, we are in a very privileged place that we can even say no to those kind of things. So, yeah, that's not lost on me at all. Yeah, I remember actually one time I went to a pool party at Dintel's house, and I remember being like, damn, this is crazy. And the only thing I remember from it is there was a girl making chilequiles in a wok. And I was like, damn, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. Was it Jimmy's place out in Medina? Yeah. Had like the little kind of 70s like swinging kitchen kind of vibe. Yeah. Yeah. That place is awesome. Yeah. Great spot. Great spot. Julie Keel is in a walk. If you're listening, give it a try, guys. I mean, that is a pretty advanced technique, and I don't know anything about cooking, but that seems like true fusion in the kitchen. I take advantage of the right vessel. Was this like an Asian-Mexican fusion kind of vibe that was going on? The only Asian part about it was the girl who was making the chile Achilles was Asian herself. Shout out to Carol. And the wok, of course, is a cooking device, but no, it was just a straight up and down chile. That sounds rad. Give it a try, guys. Very interesting. Is the Postal Service, other than getting sinks and commercial things like that, is that door pretty much closed? I'm sure you have to hear this a lot. It's been 20 years. We had attempted to start a second record in the year or so after the first one came out. It became apparent pretty quickly that not only was that kind of this little snowflake of a record but also that was also the time that death cab stuff was really starting to take off and we were touring more than we ever had done before and we had decided we were signing to atlantic and things were really starting to get crazy and uh you know i i had written transatlantism and and my half of give up kind of in the same period in 2001 2002 when death cab was on a long break um and really and you know i think it was a very kind of incredibly creative

and kind of fruitful time bro that's fucking wild it's pretty crazy yeah but you know it's like i was 25 26 you know like things were flowing like crazy and i had a lot of time on my hands so um and you know i just felt that like you know i'm already going to disappoint people with whatever we do after transatlanticism i don't want to do that sure i don't want to do that with give up as well you know even if it's good they're going to be bummed yeah i mean it's you know it's it's it's It's like, you know, first and foremost, I'm a fan of music, right? And, you know, we all know what it's like to find that record by a band you love when you're 18 or whatever it is, and it just kind of becomes a soundtrack to your life. And, you know, as the years progress, it becomes more difficult to get that same hit, you know, either from the artists themselves, the band, or just from music, you know, because you kind of get older, you kind of get into other stuff, you become a little... you hear more music, you know, and the more music you hear, you become more discerning. And at my age now, I'm 46. I mean, you know, enough music has kind of come back around, not two, but three times. And, and that's great for people who are young listening to a band that sounds like Jesus and Mary Jane. Right. But I was listening to Jesus and Mary Jane. So it's rare that, you know, it's rare that a band that has like been copied two or three times over that the third iteration of that is going to, there's going to be something for me. in that and that's fine it doesn't make it bad it just means it's not for me but death cab death cab you guys never you guys never broke up right you just kept trucking and like you take some time off here and there but there was never like an extended extended break no i mean the longest break that we've taken was probably like a year of not playing shows but you know i all the while i've been kind of writing and working on material for the band with the idea that we get back you know never like uh

Never, never. Yeah, we never did like an LCD sounds or something like that. You know, we never. Thank God. Thank God. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I like that because I think that because of the I remember when all the bands started to reunite and I was like, these motherfuckers, you know what I mean? Like I was a little bit I was a little bit upset. And then I started to divide it by if you never made money the first time, then I accept you reuniting and cashing in. That was where I that's that's where I started to kind of draw the line. That being said, I saw Morrissey a couple months ago in Vegas, and he was fucking amazing. It sounded great. I don't know how to go into things. I'm always expected to be disappointed, and sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm not sure that we would see the number of reunion tours and whatnot that we've been seeing over the last 10 or 15 years if the model was still selling records. you know, if you were like a popular band in the nineties, I mean, if you were REM in the nineties and they were selling tens of millions of albums, you know, and they went, they went two records without touring like five years without doing any show. So sick. We're all good guys. We're all set. We're still counting our money. We don't have time to tour. And in that time, you put out out of time. And Automatic for the People, both of which were massive albums. Huge, huge. But I think if you're a band, certainly a band, if you were kind of active towards the end of the album sales era and the beginning of the streaming era, playing live is the main source of revenue for virtually every musician who doesn't have publishing. So what I find kind of a little bit annoying from time to time is when I see chatter that's like, people who kind of don't know what they're talking about saying like, look, all bands need to do is just go on tour. And then when the bands go on tour, they're like, can you believe these guys are still fucking touring? I'm like, yeah, I 100% can. I 100% can. We're trying to buy diapers for their children. That's why. Yeah, we're like, these guys are just trying to get rich. No, they have a mortgage they're trying to pay on like a 1,500 square foot house in the suburbs. They're just trying to make a living and kind of avoid. Well, I think there's also something. I think that like the festival explosion,

like really fuels it to, you know, like when you need, when there's a festival every weekend in every country for eight months of the year and you need headliners, there's only so many names to pull from. And a lot of those are older. Yeah. And I think also too, like what's been cool to see from my perspective is how a lot of these festivals have become very highly curated, you know, to the point, to the extent where I think there was a, you know, I saw a festival that had, that I guess it was earlier in the spring in Vegas. It was all like, you know screamo and emo bands from like oh two to oh five or whatever oh ben yeah we were we were supposed to be on that actually uh as as a podcast partner but they didn't quote unquote get it you know so um you know that means they didn't get that but some of those bands that they booked i don't get them so i guess it goes both ways but yeah it's super they did three they're doing I think they ended up doing three days of the exact same lineup. That's how popular it was. Yeah. And it's great. I mean, it's like, that's not music that I'm particularly into, but at the same time, like good, good, good for, good for the fans of that music and good for the band. You know, it's like that to me, that I think that we're going to, I think we're going to move away. I think we're slowly going to be moving away from outside of, you know, the, the, the big, the Coachella's and the Bonnaroo's and whatever, while blues is, you know, there's like three or four like marquee. festivals that have now you know are mostly pop music with a little bit of rock music and nostalgia but it's mostly contemporary stuff to smaller festivals smaller footprints that are very specific to a genre or an era yeah and You know, I think that's great because, I mean, certainly we will surely at some point be headlining one of those. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're like, I'm paying it forward, baby, because in a couple of years, you know, I'm going to take the check. It's totally fine. It does make a lot of sense. The only downside that I've found, because I think it's amazing, and I think Golden Voice here in L.A. does a lot of really good curated ones where they had a Morrissey headline one and then like.

50 goth bands and then it's just like okay that's just a home run you know yeah but the only one issue i've seen which is a small one is like when every band is who you want to see then there's a lot of like moments where you have to choose between you know i got two bands that you love where that like we were i was watching the strokes play while Godspeed You Black Emperor was also playing. Oh, yeah. See, that's a tough choice. That's a tough choice. That's a tough choice. But even Julian was like, why are you guys here? You should be watching Godspeed You Black Emperor. That's a tough choice for 50 people that listen to this podcast and maybe the three of us. But, yeah, you're right. It's a tough choice. Overall, it's a tough choice. But, you know, if it's between Thursday and Poison the Well, then you're going to be biting your nails is what I'm saying. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, for me, you know, I have seen... We have done a lot of festivals over the years with the Strokes, and I've never seen Godspeed. No, I take that back. I saw the one years ago. But I think you have to ratio it, right? It's like, okay, I've seen the Strokes five times. I've seen Godspeed one time. Until these ratios are equal, I'm going to choose the lesser of these two fans, the one I've seen in the least. Amen. It's a good logic to have. I also wanted to talk to you about Teenage Fan Club because They're one of my favorite bands, and I feel like they're really underappreciated and underrepresented. And I know you recently covered Bandwagon-esque all the way through, which makes me think you're a real head, is that safe to say? They're my favorite band of all time, yes. Oh, baby, okay. Wow, we got a real one on our hands, TJ. Now, why do you think... Why do you think that Teenage Fan Club is a band's band and why they never broke through? Because I would, I mean, you know, if you got Kurt Cobain talking about you, you got Ben Gibbard talking about you, what's the problem? You know, Teenage Fan Club is kind of, I feel that they are a perfect distillation of some of the greatest kind of, their sphere of influence is, you know, some of the greatest.

bands that people who are into records like i mean big star being one of the more obvious ones and it's like you know there are only so many big star records and then this band comes out in the late 80s early 90s that is kind of the culmination of all of these wonderful influences but also writing just brilliant vibrant songs so catchy that's my thing the songs are hits so they're all crazy but their songs are hits in like an alternative dimension you know It's like it's in the dimension that their songs are the one where Casey Kasem is saying, and that's the number one song in the country, September Girls by Big Star. You know, like that, that world, that world never existed. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, you know, I think they really appeal to people like you and I, who, you know, clearly are like our heads and like who, you know, want new music. that is kind of based, built out of a tradition of other music that we love. And the thing that's so wild about Teenage Fan Club to me is like, you know, I would meet people who are like in noise bands, you know, who you would assume that just hate music, like who are in the kind of bands that like, oh, I'm in this, like, why are you in this no wave band? Oh, because I hate music. Sure, sure, sure. You know, but they'll be like, but I'll see them like at Teenage Fan Club shows. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing here? It's like, They're my favorite band. What are you talking about? Interesting. They're this bizarre connective tissue between so many different people who play different genres of music. And they just have never made a bad record. No, I agree. Some are better than others. When it's too good, it's too good. That's what it is. They don't make bad records. Yeah. I mean, they're not super sexy. You know what I mean? It's not like a... I think that that's... kind of the thing too it's like it feels almost like a working man's band's band and that's like what they've stayed and maybe that's better maybe that's why they're still making music if they would have you know burned out bright early they might not still so they're still making music are they still playing shows yeah yeah they one of their uh jerry love who is one of the three songwriters the band quit uh three or four years ago so but they're still going and uh you know and it's like you know uh you know i as a fan i'm sad that

that jerry's no longer in the band but that just means i get more norman songs you know so um yeah they're still going they're still great i guess uh to to put uh to put those guys on on beatles terms you know who's who's the who's the george who's the paul in that situation um you know i would i i would say that uh raymond is the george he had there usually has less songs in the records but they're usually pretty punchy pretty good um i would say that jerry was the Jerry was the Paul. A lot of the singles were his. And Norman would be the John. Good job, both of you, for that, Jason. Great question. Ben, great answer. I love podcasting. Ben, have you guys played live with Teenage Fan Club? Yeah. Over the years, I've become buddies with Norman. so uh about five years ago uh teenage fan club was doing a tour of in the states and norman reached out to me and asked he was like hey um our our keyboard player and the third guitar player also plays in bell and sebastian and they have a tour booked at the same time would you be would you want to join the band for this like two-week u.s tour sick and i was like and i was like yes i would fucking love to do that and then i looked at death cab's tour schedule and the only two weeks the only two weeks we were touring that year was was during the teenage fan club dates um so i you know i of course like being asked in the first place was unbelievably flattering and i would have done in a heartbeat but i was able to kind of like i recommended my friend michael lerner who plays in a band called telekinesis And I was like, you know, Michael would also be great to do it. And Norman was like, okay, yeah, cool. We'll have him do it. And, you know, to be able to kind of, you know, I was, of course, and I got to see one of the shows on the tour because I got a day off. And I was, you know, of course, like, I would have loved to have been up there, but to see Michael up there having a great time and having this be like an equally transcendent experience in his life.

Like, he cared about the band so much. It made me, you know, it was bittersweet, but I was really happy for Mike. And also, Teenage Fan Club did whatever you told them to do, and that probably feels pretty good, too. Yeah, exactly. I was kind of like the Kim Fowley of Teenage Fan Club. I was like, look, guys, I'll tell you what you're going to do. Like, we're not asking anybody else. Yeah. Gibbard told us to hire you, so we called you. I don't even know if you have a keyboard. Yeah, but a couple years later, I got to get on stage with him and do everything flowed in the concept. So, you know, it was... It was cool. It was cool. What if Teenage Fan Club said, hey, Teenage Fan Club, Postal Service, co-headlining tour, are we going to say yes or are we going to say no? Of course, yes. I mean, that's a big yes. Yeah, we'll come out of retirement for that. All right, Golden Voice, I know you're listening. Let's get this thing done. Let's figure this out. Ben needs a new pool anyway, so this kind of goes. Yeah, that's that demographic. The elusive Teenage Fan Club, Postal Service kind of like. Venn diagram. Oh, we're going to sell out so many 200-cap venues. Don't worry, sweetheart. We got Ben back at Mercury Lounge one night only. It's going to be great. You guys, make sure to get your tickets. Tickets still available. Tickets still available. Low ticket alert. There are a low amount of tickets sold. What is the... Now, while you're in L.A. doing this press, you know, your old stomping grounds, what spots are you hitting? I'm sure there's a couple of restaurants, you know, like scratch that L.A. itch while you're down in the big city. You know, I haven't had any time to do anything fun. But, you know, the things that I loved when I was here, I loved going to New Beverly. I loved that theater. It feels like every time I come back, the programming is... It's not as conducive to what I'd want to see than it was when I was living here. I think it's gotten a little kind of action filmy, kind of like spaghetti, westerny action filmy. It got too Tarantino-y. A little Tarantino, yes. It's a peak Tarantino, which is great for...

him and his uh fans but it only takes so much kung fu only so much yeah um there's a restaurant in the valley called osinibo that i go with i go to with jenny lewis all the time okay yeah great love that place but i haven't been able to get there man you know and i just spent a lot of time in group of park like running a group of park love that um but uh yeah i mean just this has been such an in and out trip it's like in and i'm you know i'm just doing press all day And then we're like bailing the night. Well, you're luckily you're you're right. You're right next door to the hottest restaurant in L.A. If you want to get your you know, your Italian on Mother Wolf is just right next door. And I have to we have to recommend it. We would be we'd be remiss not to recommend it. OK, do you have a do you have an in there that you could like that? You know, it might be a little last minute, Ben, to be honest with you. But I think your PR person's on the phone. Put them to work. You know what I mean? Make the kind of get them in there. Those those people Atlantic Records can they can throw some weight around. I'm sure. Ben, I can do. 515 at the bar if that works for you? One top? It's a one top. I think you guys might be wildly overstating my influence in the world to be like, yeah, I'm calling for Atlanta Records. We got the guys from Death Cab. Yeah, that band from 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, they're in town. Yeah, we got 515 on Saturday. Oh, like, oh, the runner. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no problem. No, I think that, but it is, you could probably sneak in early. It really is delicious, though. All joking aside, it really is nice. But I'm glad that you have a few haunts. It's good that you're sober because the wine list is not cheap. Yeah, we have a story where we got blindsided by a wine charge, and we're still recommending. We're still recommending the restaurant. That's how nice we are. What was the charge? How much was it? Was it a buy the bottle? Was it like you buy the bottle if the guy recommended one? So I'll tell you the story real quick. A friend of ours who goes there all the time, he has like this bottle. He's from Sicily, so he knows his legit Italian wine. And there's like a bottle. It's maybe around $80 or $90 that he loves. And I think they happened to be out of it at that time. So he's like, oh, you know, recommend something similar in that range.

And he's like, oh, yeah, I got something for you. Brings out a bottle. We tasted it. I'm like, oh, it's good, blah, blah, blah. We had a big group, so we ordered another bottle. And nobody decided to tell us that each bottle was like $260 or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And Chris doesn't drink, so he basically had some pizza and some salads. And you probably put $400-something on the Amex that day. And then you were like, okay, so we're splitting this bill, right? Of course. That's what they always do to me because they know that I love to spend money even when it's ill-advised or stupid. I tell them, you know, I'll get the tip and he says, no, no, no. Don't be ridiculous. Ben, I just hate to look cheap. It's really my greatest fear is to be seen as cheap. So I do things that affect me negatively to kind of make sure. Whereas mine is going too far out into the ocean. I have no problem. But see, therein lies this kind of issue with the ordering of wine at a restaurant. I don't think I've ever been with somebody. I mean, I'm talking like in my, when I was, you know, I'm talking like shitty, you know, cheap Italian restaurant all the way to like, we're going out for a nice dinner kind of level of meal where anybody's asked how much the bottle of wine was. It's like something that you're almost like, like if you have to ask and you don't belong here kind of thing. So you want to play along with it. And it seems like it's a, it's a place of. A lot of people get taken advantage of a lot in that kind of scenario, right? Absolutely. Oh, yeah, sure. Oh, you can recommend something? Sure. I'd love to know what your recommendation of the person who makes money on the more expensive bottles of wine being sold. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The system is flawed. Surely you won't admit how poor you are by protesting the price of this wine. Yeah, you don't want to look bad in front of your friends. You don't want to look poor in front of your friends. Yeah, Jenny Lewis might not invite you to Asanabo anymore. Exactly. Yeah, I can't. I can't not get invited to Austin Ava with Jenny Lewis. That'd be bad. Uh, I wanted to give a quick shout out to our mutual friend, Brendan Casey for kind of making this intro to Ben. Um, uh, I just, uh, you know, we could have gone through the proper channels, but I'm glad we had a personal connection, you know? Yeah. Brandon, Brandon's awesome, man. I, you know, I, we've, we've been friends for the last couple of years. We kind of met through some mutual, uh, friends like during the pandemic and like, uh, him and Amber are just the best. Like I, we,

we hang out all the time uh you know amber amber is my sports wife uh as we wow this is a new okay yeah so so rachel my wife doesn't care to go to you know seattle sounders matches or uh you know she'll go to baseball games stuff but you know she's she's not like a she's a If there's wine involved, as we've stated before, she'll go pretty much anywhere. But there's not wine at Sounders matches. Unless she brings it herself. Yeah, you can sneak it in, I guess. But you may or may not know Brendan and Amber have season tickets for the Seattle Sounders. Of course we knew that. Of course we knew that. They're like, hey, we got an extra ticket. You want to go? And so we've established this relationship where she is my sports wife, where we will, we'll go to, if Brandon can't make the game, like, yeah, I'll go with you. I'll be like your sports husband for the night, you know? So, um, and, and they're just awesome. So we just, I just saw them last week. We were, Seattle was under a cloud of smoke. So, uh, Amber and a couple of our friends came over, watched Sounders at our house. And then we went down and visited Brendan at the wine shop. So yeah, it's, they're, they're awesome people. I love, you're just a really well-rounded cat, man. I gotta say, I, you know, cause as much as I like music, I can't, I can't be bothered to like sports. Uh, it's just not for me. Um, but I'm, I'm impressed by your, your, your wide range of interests. Ben does it all. Ben does it all. You know, some, some have called me, some have called me a modern, modern day rant, man. That's just some people. Some people will call me that. You could call me that in the intro, you know, whatever, you know, you could do that. You could call me that. Okay. Certified raconteur, I'll check Spin Magazine 2005, and I'm sure they said that. I'm sure they said that. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Ben. Thank you for joining us. It was a pleasure. The new Death Cab for Cutie album, Asphalt Meadows, is out everywhere tomorrow. Are you guys going on tour as well? Yeah, we'll be on the road starting the 21st in Madison and then kind of doing a big loop around the country and then heading to Europe in the spring. Doing the whole thing. All right, man. But look, enjoy your time in L.A., and we'll see you soon, man. Appreciate you. All right, sounds good. Yep, talk to you guys later.