813. - Rachel Kushner

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Let's fucking go. It is a beautiful Thursday afternoon here from the Sunset Tower. I'm in Los Angeles with my illustrious co-host, DJ Them Jeans, Jason Stewart. There's a lot happening, Jason. I think that we just got breaking news that Anna Wintour is stepping down from one of her roles as editor-in-chief of Vogue. And the speculation is going to begin immediately as who is going to take that position. Um, so if you have any kind of dark horses that you want to throw into the ring now, just so you can be right, if it, if it comes true, feel free to feel free to kind of, you know, ideate. This is now is the time. Now is the time. Well, um, I was, I just wanted to take a quick pat on the back from myself for breaking this story to you, uh, and not the other way around. How did you feel about learning about Anna Wintour quitting? Her iconic position at Vogue magazine in a shocking career move, learning that from me, just a regular suburban guy. I don't know if I did learn it from you, but you did send a low-rent enough link that it needed to be double-checked.

You got it. The Sun is one of the world's worst publications, and I know that you just got that from Twitter, and that's what we all do. I got it from the Drudge Report. Cho seemed to be – Cho hit me with a wild, so he seemed to believe me. You still – No, of course I believe you. I just want to – I feel like the Sun could maybe – How do I say this? Play with some of the details and leave some things up to question. Okay. So you saw it and you said, let's wait until the Daily Mail chimes in. No, no. I need to see a breaking news. Let's wait until PopBase confirms it. Yes, PopBase is the best news source. On the Internet, we all know that. We all know that. But, yeah, so it's big news. I think it's a long time coming. But I think some people suspect there's a clear succession plan in place. You know, if you're going to make this announcement, you prepare, obviously, which I would probably agree with. But I wonder if she will surprise us. If it will be somebody internal that we don't know, if it will just be Sarah Moonves like we all know it should be. Okay. Well, then, so Moonves is at W. which is vogue's competition so that'd be a big shake-up right well i mean she also is a part owner so i think it would be a bigger shake-up but i also i mean she worked at vogue forever she's the she she knows the lay of the land i guess is what i'm saying but it's kind of like like vogue is like the pacers W is like OKC or whatever, you know, they're battling out for the top spot in fashion media, right? In some ways, yeah. I mean, you can't really, you know, like Vogue is Vogue. No matter what you think of it now, it's still like the Coca-Cola of magazines. You know what I'm saying? Well, this is what I think should happen. Moonves goes, but then who goes into W? You know, who runs W? Hey, these are the problems, Jason. We're playing. Chess, not checkers. I guess if we're going to keep it in the internal silo at World Trade Center over there, you know, obviously Will Welch, friend of the show, he gets bumped up. And then Chris Black is forced to run Pitchfork.

And then I do GQ? Is that how? I don't know. Sam Hines is going to do GQ. I think we could take over Pitchfork pretty easily. I mean, I think you and I, with our varied tastes in music, could really cover a lot of ground at the Pitchfork Corporation. I think we could, too. And I think if they announced that Chris Black was going to run Pitchfork, there would be more protests. than, you know, for what's going on in the Middle East. Oh, I completely agree. I think that, well, I mean, sorry, I'm not going to post news items about Frank Ocean opening a new jewelry store because we have real shit to talk about, okay? There's five people with guitars somewhere in the Midwest that made a song that I care about, so we need to get focused over there. Well, Chris, as you know, magazines have to make money, and things like Coachella Headliner having a jewelry line, that's going to move. more clicks than you know your cool new band from wichita that's got 879 plays on on spotify i mean no offense obviously you're great at uncovering and unearthing gems that have never been seen or heard before but you know we're in the business of uh move in print, aren't we? Yeah, I mean, well, Pitchfork isn't, but yeah, in theory, they are. In theory, they absolutely are. But yeah, I think that this would be great for us to have a nice, clear, corporate-owned editorial platform. And I think that we can find something at the bottom of the barrel, if need be. I don't want to launch howlonggone.blogspot.com, but I'm not above it either. I mean, after seeing that Joe Budden makes $900,000 a month just on Patreon. I was talking to Ian about it, and Ian's like, yeah, but look at what he has to do. The $50 a month tier of the Joe Budden podcast is literally like, you're talking to Joe on Discord. What do we do? Where do we go from here?

you have to do an only fans and it's a cameo and it's a discord and it's a this like all rolled into that giant lump sum which you know when you start you know heart goes out to joe i think i i saw him tweet yesterday about how uh he can't believe you know in this heat wave that's happening in new york right now he can't believe he used to smoke cigarettes in the heat like this and i feel like you know with all that he has going on maybe starting to Start smoking indoors or something like that. Just pick up this. I want Joe to smoke cigarettes is basically what I'm getting at. Yeah, Joe smoking cigarettes. I mean, Joe smoking dust is really part of his personality, but him smoking cigarettes is a nice kind of legal, safe option. It just feels right. I agree. Him not smoking feels wrong. Well, who do you think should take over? In this game of succession, Wintour's out. Who's going to go in? at vogue who should go at w who should go at gq i don't have those answers i don't think it'll be i i think it's going to be why you want to be such a little bitch no i think it's no because i think it's going to be internal because that's i think that's what people do in situations like this it's like when okay i'm ready for the names Well, no, when Carl Lager, I don't, but I don't know the names. That's the whole thing. When it's like the design team or whatever, you know, Chanel does the collection for a couple of years while they figure out who the next person is, it could be a move like that is what I'm trying to say. So it would be somebody on the internal team at Condé Nast who is both, possessing both qualities of being powerful, you know, well-learned and studied, a veteran of the game. as well as being so small and unknown that you've never heard of them? I don't think small and unknown. I think it's often a case of like a band's band kind of situation, you know, where it's like everyone loves to work with this person. They're very talented. They don't love the spotlight. That is often how this is framed. So you're saying it could be a no-namer surprise out of nowhere. Obviously, everyone's speculating, you know, the bigger players who it could be.

And you're predicting a possible curveball coming up from the ring. I don't think Sarah's going to leave W because it's going too well. Sarah's killing it over there. I think jumping off the ship while you're sailing it and it's going in the right direction is maybe not the best idea because it's not like they're going to offer you a bunch of money. It's all about the title. Don't do it, Sarah. Don't do it. I don't think Will's going to do it. I honestly don't think any of those people will do it. That's the truth. I don't think it's as up. for debate as Vanity Fair. I think Vanity Fair was like a free-for-all, and there was so much speculation. I think this is probably a little more focused speculation from the powers that be. I haven't talked to Lauren Sherman about it yet, but once I do. All right, let's give her a call. Lauren? It would be nice to give her a call right now, wouldn't it be? I think that Wintour deserves that time off. Now, ideally, what I would like her to do, retire in Martha's Vineyard, her and Keith McNally finally. make it official you know they've been kind of tap dancing around it for a while this is kind of this is a speculation this is the kind of speculation i like chris said i'm back um because they kind of have a will they won't they right i'm texting lauren and she literally is like do you want me to call you right now i'm like we don't have any way to record that we'll zoom we have a zoom right now give her the zoom link hi guys this is really fun all right so we're speculating we're speculating on this this this anna wintour news, you know, obviously Sarah's name is in the hat, but you're saying, I thought it might be a dark horse, someone from inside the organization, like when the design team takes over at Chanel, let's say. So is there, what are the options that we're really looking at here? Okay. I'm writing my piece right now. When is it, this is going to run when? Tomorrow morning. Okay. So everybody subscribe tonight to lunch so they can read it. Everybody subscribe to Line Sheet on Puck. Thank you. No other home on the internet for entertainment and fashion news. Thank you for that. Lauren, very glad to have you back on How Long Gone. I predicted Moonves stays at Dub. Obviously, Wintour's out. Will Welch moves up. Chris Black takes over Pitchfork. And then Sam Hine is at GQ. Do you know how many people are trying to get me to nominate Chris Black for Vanity Fair? I was like, this is...

Almost as ridiculous as Emily Sundberg. Me and Emily could have done it together. I didn't know that you were on the Academy. She's not. It's more of a, I think it was people, as I've said, I think it was people who directly are affected by my success in a positive way that were pushing for this. I agree. Look, I would have loved it. I think you and Emily could have done it together. Anyway, on this, you want to know who I think. Yeah, who's it going to be? I think so. I've run through the list. I'm writing this as we speak, so maybe these people will get cut out. So it's not Eva Chen. She makes too much money. Ricky DeSole is an idea. Ricky DeSole is an idea. She has worked at Vogue. She works at Nordstrom now. She's very ambitious. I think she perhaps is too ambitious for this job, which is just running American content. And you're not even called the editor in chief. So you're not. Anna is still the global content officer of Vogue and all of Condé Nast. So she has the same title that Will Welch has. This person would have the title that Shoma Nadi has. So so that's just that. I think it might be she might be too ambitious. The other person I think is interesting is Nicole Phelps, who ran Style.com Forever, and she runs Vogue Runway and Vogue Business, and Nicole is really smart. She's industry authority, and everyone who works for her loves her, and she's no nonsense. She's worked for Anna for years. I could see that happening. I also think a lot of very legitimate people are going to apply. I don't think Stella Bugney's going to apply. It's too small for her. I don't think the people we think... It's kind of similar with Vanity Fair. The people we think are... cool art, but I do think a lot of people, a lot of Brits are going to apply for it because it's still Vogue. But to me, the person is Samira Nasser. She's currently the editor-in-chief of Harvard's Bazaar. She worked for Vogue. She worked for Yannick's there. She was fashion director there. She replaced Linda Bailey at Harvard's Bazaar. I'd say that she's been successful, especially from an advertising perspective, but also...

Look, I have some issues with her approach to covers. I'll say that. Don't we all, sweetheart? Don't we all, sweetheart? Not a Jenna Ortega fan. I get it. I get it. So, you know, like the internal images of that, that is the perfect example. The inside images were awesome. And I was like, who is this person? I didn't even recognize her. I don't think I could pick. I don't think I could pick her out of the lineup. magazine cover or not but i see what you're saying you know it's funny we were we were at dinner last night with uh our mutual friend scott sternberg and we're talking about magazine covers how you know the cover is a cover you know it and you feel it and when it ain't a cover oh when the cover shouldn't be a cover it hurts yeah well maybe scott should be yeah scott scott could do it scott all right so we've got all right Thank you, Lauren. We appreciate the speculation. You're welcome. This was so fun. I'm going to talk to you both on my podcast in a few days. Yes, I'll talk to you soon and have fun over there. Bye. Thanks, guys. Bye. Thank you, Lauren Sherman, for stepping in and giving us the tea there. Obviously, it's breaking news. Why bother subscribing to Puck when you can just listen to How Long Gone, right, Chris? Before our guest gets on, we've got to talk about the Bezos. that's taken place in Venice because people are starting to arrive. And there's been a breaking development of a new pussy posse kind of emerging. Okay. In the himbo space, known nude paddleboarder Orlando Bloom, recently separated from Katy Perry, and Tom Brady, maybe the best himbo of all time, showed up together on a boat. hide your women is that is that what you would say or do you think these guys are just blooming brady blooming brady huh just trying to drink some beers or do you think these guys they want a 12 pack of peroni or you think they're chasing tail i think they kind of cover both bases pretty well don't they smart so you look at you know when you go to a restaurant you say like we got a here's the red here's the white which one do you want you're like okay i like this makes it simple you know yeah

Yes, it really is. Do you want athlete or artist? I have to say, and this is no shot at Orlando, who looks great for his age. I'm not familiar with his work. I might have never seen him in a movie. And I'm not trying to be funny. Nobody has. It doesn't matter. To me, the Bloom and Brady sounds like a homosexual flower store or something like that. It reminds me of the male casting on The O.C. You've got your Ryan and your Seth Cohen, and that sort of dictates which way the wind blows. It's a real line in the sand. Sometimes you want the quirked-up Jewish guy who listens to Modest Mouse, and sometimes you want the bad boy, Jock. Yeah, look, you know what? Muscles are a turnoff to most women, as you know, Chris, which is how we've been able to sort of thrive for years. Yeah, yes, yes. But sometimes you just want that, what did they call? orlando bloom was it orlando the uh medium cock what was it oh yeah that was funny that was really funny he's a legend i i love the whole thing and i i think being free of katy perry is going to give him a new lease on life and i you know what if he gets an oscar in five years you know because he's freed up yeah i mean i i could not name a single orlando bloom movie i think he was in i think he was in like the hobbit i think he was in like one of those huge movies but he's wearing like a crazy costume he was in uh okay gran turismo 2023 awful film even for delta he was in pirates of the caribbean that's okay that's what i was in hobbits Okay. He's been in a lot of movies. I would say 94% of them are unwatchable. But that's most actors, most actors. As we know, all movies are bad, so I'm not surprised. At least he did some that make a lot of money. Go off, Bloom. That's all that matters. But yeah, this wedding's going to be a real scene. I can't wait to see the photos because the invite leaked and it looks like a paperless post to the richest guy in the world. It looks like something that you purchased at Bloom and Brady. Yeah. 12-pack.

I got a 12-pack of these at Bloom and Brady. It's right next door to Papyrus and Publix. It does look like that. I saw something funny. Just last week, they had, I think, a birthday party on a yacht for their 19-year-old son, or I think Sanchez's son. Oh, I think you're talking about the foam party. Could you imagine, you know, like, hey, your, like, sexy 50-year-old billionaire parents are like, hey, I know. you know, the awkward high school into college teen years. And how about we all take our clothes off and have a foam party with you can you can bring all of your teen friends and I'll bring all of my, you know, billionaire people and we could all get into a boat in international waters. We'll pump the foam and we don't know who's grabbing who. We don't know who's sucking on what. And it's all going to be fine. Mom, your body's so hard. Oh, my God. You have been working out. Yeah, it's disgusting. There's, like, the scene on Mean Girls where, like, the mom who comes down to the study group and, like, I made margaritas. It's okay if you, you know, if you drink here, I'll feel better, you know, like, trying to be the cool mom. Yeah, yes, yeah, cool mom. And it goes too far. The point and reason all of our gay listeners who have spent time in Tampa know this, the whole point of a phone party. is to just have sex in the open, shrouded in the secrecy of delicious foam. Of course. And no one knows what's in the foam. No one knows what it's doing to you, but it doesn't matter because you're on ecstasy and you're not thinking about the foam. It's just a pleasant feeling. Also, foam on a boat, outdoor foam? Foam feels like it has to be in the basement of the masquerade. It needs to be like... even nastier. Well, I mean, I guess cleanup is nice out there, and I hope that that foam they're using is biodegradable. Hopefully the good people at the Simple Green Corporation. Do you think it's non-GMO? It's Miss Myers non-GMO foam. It's the... It's actually lavender scent. This one's Simple Truth. Simple Truth Anal Foam. I love Simple Truth because it sounds like a fucking right-wing podcast. That's why I love the name. Simple Truth feels so...

So coded. All right, we have a guest today. Rachel Kushner is a very celebrated author, and her most recent book, Creation Lake, is coming out on paperback July 1st. So we are going to get into it with her. There's plenty of us to talk about. Just Echo Park alone, we could do half an hour. Okay, and I know she's deep into the world of classic cars, motorcycle racing, all of Chris's favorites. Vroom, vroom, bitch. She's basically a female Jay Leno. Hey, Rachel, did you ever tumble down a hill walking from your hotel? That's a great icebreaker for this convo. You've got to ask. Three grease monkeys, one Zoom call. Let's see who comes out alive. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot. Because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app.

using promo code howlong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy but, you know, still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. You know, they focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world. writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept, quote unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early and we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional. as your competition, if not more. Head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. I was a little nervous about this because my publicist, she's a huge fan of your show, and they were acting like it was like Bernie Sanders going on Joe Rogan. They were like, are you ready? Well, look, to a certain group of people that live in Brooklyn and went to Barnard, this is that. And I think that we need to show them the respect they deserve. Hi, nice to meet you, Rachel. Nice to meet you, Jason. What exactly did your PR, your beautiful, lovely PR person, whoever they are, what exactly did they warn you about? Her name is Katie. She actually has been my publicist at Scribner since I started working with them in 2007. So, yeah, she's great. That's a long relationship. Yeah, it is. I mean, there are people in... publicity and publishing who take it very seriously it is a full-on career and they build these relationships and uh yeah i've been working with her forever but thank thank god you can actually sell some books because most people can't but that's another story you know it's feast or famine in that world i i have been very fortunate i have a lot of gratitude yeah yeah rachel said rachel said my plate's full pull up a seat well It's incredibly lucky to get to make a living doing what you would do regardless of the remuneration. Sure, of course. But back to you all. I know of the podcast and I know the visual leitmotif, the green and the blue and your typeface.

But I'm not somebody who's really listening to podcasts. I mean, I feel like I, you know, like all of us, I live in the ambiance of like the mood and vibe that podcasts have created. Maybe, I don't know. I live with men, you know, and they're like, Joe Rogan says this and blah, blah, blah. But I haven't gotten into it myself. And then Katie said, listen to How Long Gone Before You Go On because you need to know what you're dealing with. And so now I'm a listener. Now I'm a fan. So what did you listen to? Which cherry did you pop, Rachel, episode-wise? Well, obviously I'd pop my own cherry because I was a virgin to the podcast. But I thought I would start with recent because I got the feeling that you guys are kind of topical, that there's like a preamble where it's like what's going on lately. So I listened to the one where you had Lorde on. Sure. But I'll confess, and I know you guys are friends and she seems interesting, but I like the preamble better. But maybe... That's because I prefer T-Pain's version of Royals. Oh, okay. Because my husband's from Tallahassee. Did your husband go to FAMU? I'd be surprised. That's where his family would have greatly preferred to go there because he would have paid in-state tuition. He went to UNC Chapel Hill. Oh, of course. Step up. You visited beautiful Tallahassee, Florida several times over the years, I hope. Was there recently. I love it. I used to go there a lot as a teenager. I like it a lot. Oh, what were you doing in Tallahassee? Okay, guys, we can't talk about Tallahassee, Florida for too long. Let's make this a short detour. No, I just like it there, and it's a funny thing because I find that people have like a – it's strange when people have a relationship with it for any reason. But it is the capital, I guess. So that's important. It's the capital. But, you know, and my husband's, yeah, he's partly from outside Orlando, Sanford, Florida. But North Florida, you know, the further north you go, the farther north you go, the farther south you get. Oh, wow. I've never heard that before, actually. What a great analogy. Very good, yeah. Going back to the preamble that you just said. Sorry, Rachel. No, it's okay. I think many listeners of the show prefer just the one-on-one talk.

It's a little more hypnotic, and it's a little, you know, you don't have to be invested in the guest, whether you like him or not. You know, Chris and I are very good at talking to each other because it's our job, and, you know, not every musician, writer, actor, chef, or whatever is going to be able to hop into our double dutch and succeed, you know? I also listened to the episode you did with my dear friend, Bella Freud. Yes. And that was cool. Learn new things about her. I knew about her, the cold showering ritual. But not really the music part of it. Sure. You learn something. You know, I just had lunch with her and she showed up. It was 100 degrees in London and she was wearing like head to toe denim and had rode there on a scooter. And she looked she looked like camera ready. And I'm sitting there like I shuffled five minutes down the street and I look like I'd run a marathon. And I was just like, this is the word different. We're two different people. She's gorgeous and she's fantastic. I adore her. I've never spoken to someone that has that. energy like it's it's it's very um different than my own so it's extremely calming and sort of like makes you pay attention in a way that i don't think you don't meet too many freuds uh day to day at the kroger do you chris no that's true but i just think i think it does like i just i don't meet people that talk like that and i'm talking like not the word she's using like the the tone and like the pacing yeah no and you know and it's and it's Tallahassee is your beat. Sorry, Jason, to bring it back. But you don't meet them at the Piggly Wiggly either. No, you don't. No, you don't. No, you don't. I would describe her energy as soothing. Yes. So soothing. I did a version of her show, but live for a live audience. Yeah. You can really encourage you to just open up as if there's nothing to hide because she's put everyone at ease.

So, hold on. In this live version, were you laying on a couch? I was lying on a couch, yeah. Okay. And, yeah, it was in Lisbon, Portugal. We were there together at this film festival. We're both friendly with the organizers and had been judges in previous years, and they wanted us to do something. And she had just started that podcast. I didn't really know what it was. But, you know. went for it we rehearsed a little bit just like what sort of questions she was going to ask me and then when you listen to the podcast she pretty much asks everybody the same yeah questions but it you know starts to open things up it's not really just about your relationship to close but to your physical self see and that's why i can't get into that you know what i mean i'm a little oh hey well you you mentioned her having this amazing ability to sort of calm the guest, and the audience and everyone else. What do you think it actually is, though? Because watching it happen, like you said, she's asking oftentimes the same questions over and over again, going down different paths, and everything is new every episode. But are you able to maybe distill any specific things on why she is able to do that so well compared to other people? Yeah, well, that's the fun part about her being a Freud is that, you know, even the geometry, she's seated on a chair. She's behind you. You're looking up at the ceiling and it may be just the framework itself puts people in the mood to divulge. But I also think Bella is really interested in other people and she wants to learn from them. and is less invested in her own judgments of what other people are doing. And I think you're born with that. It's like a really special character trait where some people are raising up the room. They're like lending grace and dignity to conversation. Well, you're in the wrong place, Rachel. You're in the wrong place if that's what you're looking for. We don't do that over here. We can get dirty. The thing is I'm able to appreciate and perceive Bella's strength because I probably don't.

possess it myself sure sure yeah you could yeah you can see it in her because you don't have well i i think that she does have that skill and i think that we we've had a lot of writers on the show and you know i'll listen to interviews with them and they'll do you know book events and panel discussions at colleges and festivals and things like that and some people seem to consider it a chore uh part of the job that they don't really want to do they want to stick to the writing and let it speak for itself And I feel like you kind of embrace the panel discussion, literary event, book tour type of thing. And I think you seem to go out of your way and do an excellent job at it. And I feel like Chris and I do that with maybe our ad reads or other parts of the podcasting job that aren't the most exciting. How do you feel about that? Do you agree? That's so nice of you to say. As soon as you said ad reads, I heard. booking dot yeah and i just keep thinking like what the fuck is booking dot yeah we we're still asking we're still asking rachel we're still asking i go like this i go booking dot oh booking dot i mean rachel don't give this shit away for free to them jesus christ i know what dot com is but what is dot yay Well, okay, this is the thing that I was just talking to about my wife, because she will listen to my podcast every once in a while, and she'll come home from Pilates, and she'll open the door and be like, Booking.yeah. She'll just say it to me as a funny joke. And I remember when the Booking.yeah commercials first started. It would be like a year or two ago, and it would have famous people. Doing, like, television commercials on the Super Bowl. Like, what's her name? Elaine from Seinfeld. Julia Louis-Dreyfus. Julia Louis-Dreyfus, a person who has tens of millions, if not, you know, just so much money. And she's on TV going, booking dot, yeah. And I was like, that's the worst thing ever. I hate it. And then a year and a half later, it's in our minds. It happens. It's just a thing.

seeps into our DNA. It's inside of our fascia. Like literally today, somebody sent me a screenshot on Instagram saying, I rented a car through booking.com because of your dumb booking.yeah ads. Well, I mean, you know, I'm friends with Brett, who I guess you guys have had on the show also. And I haven't listened to his podcast recently, but it used to always be these ads for the great books, you know? And I was like, Brett, you are not. I'm talking about Brad East Dallas. He is not reading the great books, but he's just doing it because he's got to get the funding, and that's cool. I don't know how I got to booking. Oh, about doing events, you were saying? Just going out there and wanting to do a good job at the other parts of the job of being a writer. A panel discussion, an interview, a talk, a signing, or whatever. I mean, I don't want to respond like... As if I agree, oh, yes, I do do a good job and this is how, but it does happen. My words. Okay. But, yeah, it does, it happens to be the case. I feel like the last year, I had this book came out in September and did not write it with the intention it would be a bestseller. It's like kind of written for my friends. It's about anarchists and Neanderthals. It really didn't seem like it was just going to, you know, latch on to the zeitgeist. But I guess in its own way, it sort of did. And I think I went out with a new attitude, new for me, which was treat each event like it's the only event. And treat each audience like they're the only one. And tonight's the only night. And not be like, oh, I got to get through 30 days of this. And rather just be as present as I can. And I found that doing that actually gave me energy back. Whereas if I was like, these are my boundaries. I'm closed. After a certain question, I'm done. It's the hotel. And that requires a kind of...

energy that was more draining for me which is how i used to maybe approach things okay um yeah i mean so how why do you think that this book we're talking about um creation lake available on paperback um so a book involving eco-terrorism and neanderthal skull structures and fish grease how is that you know how is that resonating with uh 2025 You know, I don't know if it's for me to analyze, but I think looking at the very deep past. Well, you're the only one of the three of us who have read it. So we're going to have to lean on you for right now. And, you know, of that, I mean, have I read it? You know, is the writer able to see the writing and reading? Very different. Very different. But I do plan on, I guess, though, who do you think the audience is? Who do you think the audience is? You know. anticipating audience is a kiss of death for an artist. I mean, I guess you're not asking who I was targeting. No, no, no. I mean, who is, yeah. I mean, who do you think is embraced? I think, I think, I mean, who has embraced it, not who you were targeting. Okay. Yeah. Cause I just write for, you know, God, my big daddy, my big mama. God is my big daddy. Like what Chris and I, we, we never set out to have. hot young women be our core demo, but that's just the way the cookie crumbled for us, and it's our cross to bear, but who have been some through lines for you? There's been a range, but some of my favorite are the middle-aged men who have come to my readings to get a book signed and show me their 23andMe results. Okay. Like, look, I'm 4% Neanderthal. Hold on, hold on, hold on. What do they think? They're showing you they're 23 and me like I'm 4% Neanderthal to be like, yo, I really understand you. I really understood this book. I like it better than other people because it's about me. And also is 4% good? Is that high? Is that low? Very high. Okay, 4% for a species of people that died out.

30,000 years ago and are not actively contributing to the gene pool. It's huge, but I don't know. You know, I think it's like show and tell. I just am interested when people bring something to show you, but it's, it's a range. They're kind of people, my generation who were sort of like in the sort of ultra left sphere, people who were influenced by the. like anti-globalization movements of the early aughts. It's kind of, in a way, a book for those people. But then, you know, there's the book club ladies. We love those book club ladies. Thank you, Reese Witherspoon. You know what I mean? She bought you that house. And I guess you also have the spy novel sector kind of carved out as well, right? That's a big chunk of it. Yeah, some of that. You know that R slash espionage has found this book. Yeah, so you've got the classic combo of... neanderthal espionage motorcycles people well there's no motorcycles in that in this book i mean there's a there's a tractor pull there's a tractor pull in it um there is tractor talk in it and we need to destroy those machines with our rocks can you explain to people that don't know what that is a tractor pull yes i can i can try so the tractor pull is when the tractor is pulling this like lead sled that has weights on it. And the harder you pull it, the more the weights start to shift forward, putting more force on the engine so that it's harder to pull. And, you know, this was like popularized first in the United States, but has become huge, bizarrely in Switzerland, which we think of as like punitively ecologically minded, you know. But if you go to a Swiss tractor pull, it's just like guys in mullets just sending huge flumes of like inky coal rolling smoke. Hell yeah. I didn't know the Swiss were part of the brotherhood like that. Damn, hell yeah. They are. So I had to put that in the book. I always have a little bit of car thing. I try to avoid it. And then my husband was like, of course, you write a rural novel and find a way to put a tractor pull in it. Like, could you just.

Leave that stuff behind. Not yet, maybe. I mean, Chris does a lot of sled pulling over at Equinox, so he probably was able to. Yeah, I do. I do sled pushing and pulling, but there's no, unfortunately, there's no motor involved except for my heart. You go to Equinox? That's right. You got something to say? Maybe. Maybe. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian, stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Hi, Talk House Network listeners. It's your old friend, Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer, and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, LaGrange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. Study and play. Come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds.

Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. Which Equinox do you go to, Rachel? Downtown? No, I'd say I just got into weight training. It's a very new thing for me, only the last four months. At this place, my son says it's like lame, kind of bourgeois thing where like you pay them $45. for you know your session and then they like kind of help you are you are you are you describing personal training or is this something different yeah well no it's something different because there's like a bunch of people in the room so it's a group fitness class it's not a class though it's a little what's the name rachel what is this place called okay it's called it's called lift silver lake okay lift silver okay i can i can see it i can see it now i know exactly what it is my son is like you're pathetic he goes to la fitness on what a hater caesar chavez okay figure out we need to check on your son because la fitness is known for steroid you know there might be somebody trying to push something on is he big big no not really he's 17 years old i don't think they'd be okay the thing i worry about with that la fitness is that it's like i mean the people outside of it are out of their minds on drugs. It's like, it's wild. It's a wild spot. It's in a tricky part of town. You might find, you might open the wrong locker and find, find something you shouldn't see. You know what I mean? That, that's what I would say. Why don't you have that boy, send him up to, there's a gold gym at the Americana in Glendale. The only action on the streets are going to be kebabs for sale. Nothing but protein, nothing but gains. Tell him to come on down. What is he, what is he training for life or a sport? Life. Getting chicks. I mean, this is five blocks from our house. I think teenage boys are getting into weightlifting. This is a thing, right? They kind of always have been, but it's more so. Maybe more so. It's like TikTok and shit, though. It's like everywhere. He has a girlfriend, so I don't think he's aiming, you know, he's not targeting. He doesn't have goals that go with his glow up.

He's just into it. What are your glow-up goals? We like to ask everyone at Lift Silver what your glow-up goals are. Before we get started. I asked them yesterday, or I said, do you think it would be possible? I was trying to be super modest. I said, within a year's time, if I would be able to do one pull-up. And the dude goes, you will never do a pull-up. What a fucking dick. That's how they get paid the big bucks over at Lift Silverlight. I hope they don't listen because they're going to bar me. I disagree with this personal trainer. You look as if you will be able to complete one pull-up. I mean, if you said that you can do one now, I would completely believe it. Oh, no. Okay, Jason, you're lying. I wouldn't believe that. No. I wouldn't believe that. She looks like she's a healthy, in-shape human being. Oh, absolutely, but there's a look to pull-ups that I think you can smell it. You can see it. It's in the back. Yeah. Again, he didn't smell it, and I wasn't offended at all. I just thought, he's saying I'm a delicate lady who doesn't need pull-ups in her repertoire. What is the vibe of the group? What is the mix? Is it Miranda July writhing around on the floor? Is it producers? What is the vibe? Judging by this location, by our favorite Silver Lake Gelson's and Trader Joe's, it's going to be... A bunch of gay guys and some Asian chicks that are producers. I try not to look at the other people, you know, because I don't want them to look at me because I think I vaguely know all of them, basically. So you sort of just, you know, you do that courtesy non-recognition. Yeah, no, that's a very known gym thing. Focus on the sweat. Yeah, you don't need to talk to anybody that's not like your real friend if you just know them from school, drop off or the grocery store. So on your weightlifting journey, it's new. What are you? gravitating towards obviously not everything is enjoyable it's not supposed to be but some things are more fun than others i personally like a pull-up like what are you uh you a squatter you a thruster oh right so you right so since i can't and will never do a pull-up uh you know i try to focus but what's focus on what's within my oh i don't know i mean i only go there twice a week what's this one called a bench press you're lying on the bench press yeah

But just with free weights. Yeah, it's a dumbbell bench press. Yeah, that's kind of fun. It just makes me feel powerful. You know, it's like 15 pounds in each hand. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you're training, so if you ever get trapped under a car, you can just kind of lift it up. Yeah, yeah. Well, I told them, they asked, what are your goals? I said, I want to be strong and healthy. So like every time the guy walks around to see if I'm doing it, he goes, strong and healthy, huh? You're like, I think that's kind of everyone's goal here. Could you get a little more granular? Can you get more specific for us, Rachel, please? We would love to hear more from you. You're very verbose in your work. I don't know why you can't. I'm sure the trainer's like, you're the first person to come in here and not say better ass and only better ass. That's true, actually. I didn't go into that part. I did say that. Yeah. Okay. Why not? Of course. Why not? I mean, that's why we all do it. It's almost summer. You don't feel like it's summer already? I know it's technically not, but... Well, I'm not living my summer life right now. So that will start in July when I go on vacation for the first time in two years. Okay. So a couple of years off to Puglia. Where are we going? Oh, yeah. I heard you say Puglia. And I thought, is that like for effect? Yes. Someone said Puglia. It's because as Americans, I don't pander to foreign audiences by pretending to be them. Puglia. We don't say Puglia. We don't say Zohra. Yeah, okay. Lasagne. Yeah, no, we like to go to this. very small beach town north of barcelona on the mediterranean and um has all these incredibly beautiful limestone cliffs that i do not jump off of um and my son loves to jump off of back flipping off that shit in front of the hose i like it so your son's listening to playboy cardi doing backflips what are you doing he my son actually just told me he's he's friends with this girl her dad owns playboy

He owns Playboy magazine or Playboy Cardi? I don't know. What's Playboy Cardi? Playboy Cardi is a popular rap artist. Oh, I thought you were talking about the magazine. Playboy the magazine, I think, is a shell of what it once was, but they're trying to rebuild with the valuable IP. But also, what magazine is in a shell of its former self? You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm remembering now, maybe I knew somebody who took over Playboy and was editing the fiction, and I sent them a story. I sent them a story, and they said it's too adult. At first, they wanted to run it, and then they said it's banned. Too adult for Playboy. Well, they got a little tricky right before COVID. I know they had some switch-ups. A friend of mine named Jamal, he was working there, and they were turning the boat around. COVID came, and then they did a full shift into horny NFTs, and then things got a little wacky after you go NFT, right? Yeah. Are we still... Are NFTs still a thing? To someone... Technically, yes. To someone, yes. I think they probably are. Why, do you want to buy one? I have several. Price to move. I thought all those people kind of switched to... What is it called? The crypto memes? Crypto... Meme coins. Yeah. Meme coin, thank you. See, I'm not very up on this. Yeah, we just refinanced our home to all fart coins, so it's going to be a great Q3 over here at the house. We're making moves. We're making moves. I mean, the whole crypto thing is amazing because it's just so live for today, live for this minute only. Like, there will be no tomorrow. It's just fully turbocharged nihilism. That's a really, I would say, positive light to paint it in, to be honest. Well, because they have the false sense that they'll just make it all again tomorrow. So why not spend it all today? Yeah, or just with the next fart coin. I get the feeling that they almost are sort of, they know better than the people who've been talking about climate crisis for the last several decades. The tech people now are sort of like, well, there wasn't even going to be a tomorrow. So it's just like rape and plunder now.

this minute, wealth via the most explicit brazen, unapologetic pyramid scheme imaginable. So do you guys have a meme coin? No. We do not swim in those waters. I'm pretty adverse to that stuff. I mean, particularly because during COVID people were, I had multiple people call me and be like, if you don't do this, you're fucking up. You're an idiot. You have to get in on the ground floor, you know, that kind of shit. And I would say none of them are rich now. So I don't know if it really worked out for them. I mean, I wish that I got in early with Bitcoin because I know several people who, you know, are living nice. comfortable lifestyles. I do too. I see them on Instagram. They have penthouses in Miami that have no furniture in them. Not all of them. No, I'm saying people that I'm actively currently friends with, you know, own a beautiful home in Highland Park or Echo Park or anywhere, you know, places that we all live, have jobs, have everything. But, you know, that extra, you know, 700,000 means they're able to own a home in a time where you just cannot. But it's virtually pure chance. It's like just know when to hold them, when to fold them. Yeah, it's a luck-based enterprise. Whereas I dumped into Ethereum. That's so great. What's your investment strategy, Rachel? I don't have an investment strategy. I mean, I guess to the degree that I have a retirement savings, it was just done conservatively. which is ironic now because it would have been mostly in the bond market, I guess. But everything now is in question. That is correct. Oh, it's fine. It's fine. You think? Yeah, it's going to be fine. People need to calm down. It's going to be fine. I mean, it's kind of funny in a way that the people who elected Trump.

Watched him destroy the economy and have a sort of version of kink that they didn't anticipate. He's not a conservative. He's not a reactionary. He's just Caligula. He's here to make a certain group of people very wealthy. And, you know, consequences be damned. Right. Just maybe his own, just him and his family. Maybe some of his family members. His family. And now I feel like he's starting to talk like Billy Graham. There's a certain, like, evangelical. Hey, Billy Graham was in power for quite a long time. I would rather him take cues from a good Christian man than some of these other dictators, you know, around the world. I think once you hit a certain age, if you're going to be publicly speaking like that, you sort of have to adopt a preacher man affectation just to get the words out at all. You know what I mean? You think? I mean. It's an idea. It seemed kind of quixotic. to me i mean it was over the iran thing he was like if you love daddy he will uh provide world peace to all his supplicants it's getting a little fundamental i hate to say this i hate to say i hate to say this to you but it was cool as hell and it's really funny and diabolically weird and it's just exactly what i it's just like he's gonna keep taking it further and further and you just have to be ready for it who was that there was a preacher In L.A. on public access in the 80s and 90s, Reverend, do you guys know who I'm talking about? I remember in Orange County there was one, I forgot what his name was. It was like the 700 Club? Yeah, that was everywhere. That was syndicated. This guy, his parish, what do you call it, was downtown on Main Street, and there was a marquee that had his name on it. I can't remember his name. It was incredible because we used to watch it in Northern California just for fun. We were like stone teenagers, and he would go on and on and on, and then he would get up and leave his chair to like, I don't know, have a snack, go to the bathroom, and the camera would just be on his empty chair, and then he would come back. As a teen, you would smoke weed and watch church TV.

Well, it happened on occasion. You know, sometimes there's like – You're clicking through, get a giggle. You did something once or twice, and then later on it kind of seems like that's what we used to do because it made some impression on you. Do you – I guess speaking of eco-terrorism, do you feel like the community of eco-terrorists has received your writing well, or have they – turned on you like a primate and are throwing rocks at your helicopter, metaphorically speaking? Well, not to be dantic about it, but in terms of terminology, like to call people terrorists would sort of be to identify yourself as outside of their community, you know? I want to be clear. I'm outside of their community. I just want to be super clear. That's fine. Is there a better word for it? Well, the thing is, like, terror suggests violence. And I think a lot of people, myself, maybe among them, don't consider the destruction of private property to be violence, and rather the physical harming of people to be violence. And, you know, there was a pretty strong movement in the Northwest, Oregon, Washington, Northern California. in the aughts of people who felt like if we don't protect this stand, for instance, of old growth redwoods, they will be gone. And so like chaining themselves in front of tractors and logging equipment, et cetera. There was this organization called Earth First, and I was actually kind of involved with them in college. And I'm interested in the way that those groups were infiltrated by cops. Like there was this FBI agent who infiltrated a group of people in Northern California who were friends of friends, a lady FBI agent. And she entrapped this young guy and he ended up going to federal prison and serving nine years before the case got thrown out. So I was like hearing about that from people. And and then I've known people in Europe involved in these movements.

It's been interesting to have like when I did an event in Seattle, there were a bunch of people who came who were part of those movements and kind of considered themselves survivors of what they called the Green Scare, which was that their groups were infiltrated by these weird cops who seem like they've just figured out how to get an expense account and convince their supervisor that like anarcho hippies are genuine. threat to the energy sector. Well, I mean, aside from being a sexy lady CIA member, what are some foolproof ways to infiltrate an organization like this, do you think? I'm going to say showering every other day. Cutting back on the shower. What else? I guess in terms of espionage, it doesn't seem like the most difficult. group to gain access to right i don't know i would agree okay so i think like these people always seem so obvious to me but then when you ask people like there was a guy named mark kennedy who infiltrated people in france and germany and to me when i saw the pictures of him i was like this guy looks lost like those people who one day they're a punk rocker the next day they're like a white guy with dreads with um some guatemalan surf pants you know it was like always changing look yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean and like this guy changed his look completely when he started hanging out with the anarchists suddenly had like short hairs dressed all in black like people are not doing a lot of flair you know they're very uh norm norm core almost and i i said like didn't it wasn't it suspicious to you guys that he completely changed his look and they go no you know we just thought he was like getting a style I feel like most people change their looks once they join an organization like that. Last time I joined an organization, I switched my look up. I felt like I had to. I remember this somewhat with animal rights stuff. There were cops around, but now you see undercover cops.

all the time in new york and people are like making fun of them because it's so obvious like you're saying rachel like they'll be like who are you fucking fooling it's a guy in like a yankees jersey you know and you see his like badge under his shirt but they still fool people every day so it does well fools get fooled i guess but um i mean we just had this in la on the i know you guys talked about the no kings um yeah i liked your no kings tour The merch, like your banter about that was hilarious. But we I will live walking distance from downtown. And so we went down there, just walk down there, check it out. And like the first thing I see we show up at City Hall is this guy dressed like an anarchist, all in black with the black baseball hat. And he had all the right stuff, you know, but he was completely yoked. like two jacks so obvious it was the owner of it was the owner of lift silver like you could tell underneath that underneath that tactical gear you would never do a pull-up lady dream on hold on i have to go to the parade okay so you but you're saying he was so jacked that he couldn't have been a true anarchist but also okay to go further He was wearing an aura ring. That's actually really good. I'm here to smash the state with my aura ring. I need to see how much energy I expelled today marching. And he would have got away with it, but he couldn't not clock those steps that day. That's what got him. He was like, oh, I really didn't have good quality REM sleep last night. God, that's actually so funny to see a guy basically dress like he's ready for the insurrection and he's got an aura ring on is really funny. Really funny. I took a picture of him and put it on Instagram and the poet Ariana Reins pointed out the aura ring because I've seen those rings. My brother has one, but I didn't know what they were called.

So now I'm just playing it off like, oh, yeah, and he had an aura ring. But then also he was scrolling his phone. And so a friend of mine is like, you know, anarcho-insurrectionist. Yeah, like letting everybody know his geolocation at every second. That might not end well. We saw another guy who's so obviously a cop, just like he had that kind of. Thick and, you know, no offense against those among us from Orange County, but he had that kind of thick like Huntington Beach, you know, bro, super bro body. The fuck did you just say, bro? Jason's tried to have that for years. That's why he had to move away from Huntington Beach. He wasn't accepted. He had a scarf over his face that said FTP, like fuck the police, you know. American flag over his shoulders, but all by himself. And my husband was saying, if you see a big white guy by himself at a protest, he's a cop. That's good intel. That's good intel. As a big white guy, Chris agrees wholeheartedly. Sometimes, Rachel, in certain settings, I get mistaken for a cop. Is that true? I think it's more wishful thinking from my haters, but yes. I would say more than sometimes. It's a long-running through line in his life. He exudes that energy as a wallflower, you know what I mean? Even though I hate the police and hate authority. But I do dress plainly. It's his king. But I think that's cool. I mean, maybe you just look like you're not trying hard to signify anything. You just look kind of normal. Exactly what I'm trying to signify. I just want to be down the middle, man. Yeah, I like that. But unfortunately, I'm tatted up. I made a lot of mistakes. So that kind of gives it away. Oh, man. I was just in Australia, in Adelaide, Australia. And everyone there, all the young people are covered with tattoos. I only bring it up because you said mistakes. So I saw like green light to try out my theory on you all, which is that I think the tattoo removal industry in Australia is a growth industry. So we should get in on the ground floor. Should be investing.

But I feel like in Australia, you're allowed to have tattoos and have any government municipal position whatsoever. Well, I think also it's probably popular there because going shirts off is a big part of their culture. Yeah. You want to show off everything you got, not just the pectorals. I feel like whenever I'm in Australia, the tattoos are much more ubiquitous. You got any tats, Rachel? No. I'm just plain skin, unadorned. That's surprising. I would have figured you would have had a little cherry on the ass or something like that from 98. One mistake. One mistake. One mistake. Yeah. I remember meeting a girl when I was a teenager, and she had two cherries over the pelvic bone. And then it said, ain't no more. underneath it ain't no more what does that mean exactly her cherry is gone jason her cherry is gone damn wow what a great callback to our initial convo of cherry you get over a certain age and you're not really seeing anything very special sure once you got three kids it's a little bit like yeah bitch we know we could tell yeah yeah we could tell that's a good tattoo i would have no no l7 tramp stamp or anything rachel huh well I lived for a little while. I was roommates with some tattoo artists in San Francisco. I was like young bohemian. I worked as a bartender in the live music industry and also just in the alcoholic barfly industry. And that may be like, you know. Do you guys remember what you're I'm older than you, but the Schick Center for quitting smoking where they just have you smoke like cigarette after cigarette until you're completely nauseated by the idea of smoking. I'm familiar with that concept. I know that name. So I think that living with tattoo artists really turned me off to any curiosity about them. I mean, this was their early 90s and my roommate.

Very nice guy, Freddie Corbin, who's a successful tattoo artist, still has a shop in Oakland, had already like a union suit on his body of tattoos, like no skin left. And they, the lifestyle was, I've written about it a little bit, but it was like living with like rock stars. There were like piles of cash and drugs. And it was a very. fast-moving kind of life for them that also seem to be teetering right on the edge between life and death. And I associate all of that with, no offense against people with tattoos, but for me personally, I'm not into those kinds of commitments where you make the decision and you can't go back. Well, but yet you have a child. So how do you explain that? Yeah, that's a really good point. And that is, I guess, A perfect example of a decision where once you're on the other side of it, you aren't the same person who made the decision. Oh, I see. Sure. And so, yeah, I've never regretted anything about having a kid or being a parent or spending time with my son, who is completely awesome. But I have known people who've regretted their tattoos and then gone to get them removed. And it turns out, you know, they don't they can't. take the ink out of your skin. They have to pulverize it and send it into your bloodstream. There's no easy way out. There will be soon, though. Also, often, it looks kind of worse. It's not a perfect science, and it's quite painful. There will be soon, because Jason, you've invested in this new... We're going to keep innovating in this space. I feel like every year, I mean, just like Botox and plastic surgery when it first came out, you know, a tit job was 50-50 if it was going to ruin your life or be cool. You know, it's perfected now. And in 10 years, laser tattoo removal is going to be everywhere. And I don't know how to invest in it. I was skimming through some footnotes of the book, some random questions I'm going to throw out to you.

ideal situation if we if we were to go deep into the earth's core what is the ideal situation for what's happening down there in your opinion the earth's core is a molten ball of fire yeah but there's stuff going on down there you know speculation you know the unexplored world we you know space and sea and water and Do you think that there's anything maybe mystical going down inside the center of the earth? You're sweet to ask me about that, but I thought you guys were just going to ask me about my beauty routine and my diet and whether I drink green juice. What your favorite smoothie at Erewhon is? Yeah, but I've never been to Erewhon. I actually went to Erewhon, and then I'll get back to answering your question. I only went to Erewhon one time because I was sick. It turned out I had COVID, but I didn't know it at the time. And my friend Laura goes, well, you can go to Erwan and get this thing and you won't be sick anymore. It'll completely cure you. And it was called like... colloidal silver or something, which is a poison from what I read. It's like, it will kill your liver. It's a good poison. It's a good poison. I just do a blueberry banana with an ivermectin booster and it'll knock everything out. Also, yeah, with some arsenic. I mean, it's basically like arsenic. So I go and get this shit. It comes in a little bottle. I've never been to Erewhon. It's not that far from my house, but I just, I ate. The word backward? No word backward. Whatever. It's not my thing. I'm in Echo Park. I don't need to go to Erwan. But I went to get this stuff because I was desperate to not be sick anymore. And I drank it. And it's flavored with oregano. And it's like Nazi pizza sauce. It tastes and smells evil. Wait. Oil of oregano is a... Gnarly. Is a punishing... So you live in Echo Park, and you're saying to me that you would rather go to Canyon Coffee than Erwan? I don't go to Canyon Coffee. That's for visitors from Instagram land. But also, I don't like that kind of gourmet coffee that's super acidic, and people just think it's good. I like French roast. So yeah, I don't go to Canyon Coffee, but I have been spotted.

at the overpriced but delicious store cookbook that is a few dollars down. I could look at you and tell you've been to cookbook now. Come on. Oh, is that right? Well, there's an archetype to that store. Great store. I mean, there's no reason to be embarrassed. Yeah, suckers. Exactly. People that work for a living and like to spend their money in ways they shouldn't. People that have a high criteria for produce quality as well, Chris. That's true. That's true. But you see everyone in there. Kids in free box clothes, but they are spending money on food. And you see the local characters in there. Ian Sivonius. I've seen him in there. Ian Sivonius. From the makeup. From the makeup. From the band The Makeup. And some nation of Ulysses, et cetera, et cetera. Ulysses, yeah. But I feel like, you know, even if you are wearing free box clothes, as you said. you're able to experience a beautiful piece of joy, the greatest version of something for, you know, under $10 at Cookbook. You can get the world's greatest sweet potato money can buy in the Western Hemisphere. Or whatever, a piece of chocolate, a strawberry. Wait, you guys, neither one of you are vegan, right? Chris is sort of vegan, but we were both vegan straight-edge warriors from when we were, like, you know, young teens. Yeah, that's why I know about. you know, animal rights. I won't say terrorism because I've learned my lesson, but, you know, that kind of behavior. Activism. Militancy. Militancy. Militancy. That's where we learn to destroy the machine. But how do you guys feel about Monty Good Burger, which is right around the corner from my house and I think is the suck. Monty Bad Burger. I don't like the ads. I do not participate in that kind of stuff. What's it supposed to be? Just a smash burger? It's vegan. And so, wait. My son and I went there once and I was like, hey, what's in this cheese? And the guy hands me the list of ingredients for the cheese. And it's like this long. It's like ultra high process centrifuged, you know, molecular guar gum. How is that better? It's not. Well, it's not. And that kind of stuff, it's like sort of like novelty carnival food for when you just like.

I'm vegan. I hate my life. I really miss Carl's Jr. I'm going to go to a place where I can get a quote-unquote vegan bacon double cheeseburger and french fries and a Coke, and I'm going to get that hit of nostalgia and dopamine, and I don't care if it is way worse for me than eating the standard version from In-N-Out or whatever. I guess you could be a vegan and just live on chocolate yoo-hoo. Yeah, I mean, many of our friends growing up, you know, you would just live on high processed food products that are only coincidentally vegan. So just like, oh, these cookies are so cheap and low quality. Instead of using butter and eggs and flour and milk, we're just using, you know, fucked up seed oils and syrups that are made out of. Was that like a kind of seed oil dog whistle you just did? That's not a dog whistle. He talks about seed oils every chance he gets. I try to avoid the seed oils, but I still consume them sometimes with my wok cooking. It's a smoke point issue. I can't be bothered to use avocado oil. I'm not made of money. Smoke point issue is cool. Never heard that term before. Look, we're moving away from high heat cooking. The racial implications we'll get into on the next episode. A few quotes. From In and Around, the newest book, I'm just going to throw them out. You talk about them. Quote, unquote, literary success is for losers. I think Chris might agree with that. Hell, yeah. What do you mean by that? I agree with you already, but tell me what you mean so I can agree with you more. I don't remember where I said that or what the context was. I'm just trying to have fun, you know, and not take myself too seriously. I get it. Welcome home, Mama. So when people are like, I think there was, like, a questionnaire. And they, oh, first they asked me, like, who's most overrated living author? And, oh, who did I say? Zadie Smith. This is so embarrassing. I'm just having a brain. The guy from The Warriors, who's, like, famously the great shooter. Steph Curry with the shot boy? Yeah, I said Steph Curry was most overrated living writer. Has he written a book?

No, it was just a year when the Lakers and the Warriors were facing off. I mean, this was like 2018. I just try to divert myself, you know what I mean? Have fun. And then they were like, what has your success meant for you? And I just said, success is for losers. Because you want to just keep doing your thing and not be like, well, my career has been really blah, blah, blah. I agree with you about that. I guess. You just got to kind of keep your head down. Success. is only a means to an end, which is to make art and live kind of what I would define as well. It's not an end in itself. Once you're just into, I don't know, going to cocktail parties in New York City and being on prize committees and stuff like that, I mean, I guess there's literary service and somebody needs to do it. But that's just not my scene. That is our scene. And we are open and ready to do any engagement in that field whatsoever. I love a cocktail party. Keep my distance a little bit. But I think that's part of like living far away from New York and also living here in Los Angeles, which, you know, it just feels like there's so many different things. going on and no one cares if you're a novelist that's not like a legit set of bona fides to present people would go oh no oh the novelist is that a hulu thing or a netflix thing yeah yeah i saw the first season but yeah when you're in la like i'm a novelist like oh so it'll get better i'm sorry man like yeah i just feel like people don't ask which is fine with me there's like so many other things to talk about but i remember when i moved here i met some guy who goes oh we're just chit-chatting and he goes so are you Are you also in the industry that shall not be named? What are you talking about? I didn't realize that he meant like screenwriting. Or ghostwriting. Or podcasting. The list goes on. Ghostwriting the whip? What is that? I think he meant books, but we know what you're talking about. You just wanted to sneak in that nice little yay area-ism, didn't you, Rachel? You did, yeah. Because we all know that you're so bay with it.

It just happened. It's you guys. I'm, like, trying to, you know, trying to please you. Bay with it. I like to think that I exude a hyphy aura, and it's cool that you're able to pick that up through the Zoom link. Okay, another quote out of context. Quote, unquote, democracy is for predators. You know, a lot going on in the news right now. Would you like to add more color to that sentence? A lot going on in the news right now. And maybe, like, the DSA is for winners. MomDonnie, booking.fuckyeah. All of those things, yes. MomDonnie.fuckyeah. Somebody in Bushwick just went and bought that domain, so we fucked up not getting it first. Democracy.yeah is, I have it for sale. Highest offer. I planted my flag. We're going to do an auction for democracy. Yeah. The DSA will be your new advertising overlords and you guys will be like doing sound bites for the Democratic Socialists for America. We can be, we can be swayed. Me more than Chris politically. Classic cars. I want to know what Chris's two favorite classic cars are and Kushner. I've got two myself. Do you want me to go first? Yeah. 65 Malibu four door. Or VW square back. But the fact that you had to throw four door in there. I just I like what you don't. It's like I'm into Olympics special. I really hope our listeners make it to the very end of the episode to hear that. Great. Partially offensive joke that was well structured. Oh, sorry. Para. Para. Para. Well, I mean, it depends on what your goal with cars are. For you, me go fast is your top priority because you're running from whatever demons you have still that need to be worked out from childhood. Me, I just like a clean line aesthetic. I'm a really tall guy, so I need a more of a roomier cabin. I hear you. Don't hate on the four-door, okay?

Coupes are a little gay, that's all. I go low and slow, first of all, in my 64 Ford. It is not like a high-performance experience that I offer to my passenger. But it's a two-door. It's a same-size car. It just looks a little better. On the Galaxy 500 Owner's Club Facebook group. Know it well. To join, you have to sign a pledge that you will not talk down on four doors. See? That's cool. Four doors. Four lives matter, guys. Four lives matter. I don't think I have, I don't care about cars enough. I mean, I would just get like a 911. Those are awesome. Like, I just don't care. Or maybe, you know, honestly. Yeah, that's it. I don't think I really, I don't know. A little American muscle, Chris. Come on. I mean, I could do a Mustang. You know what I mean? Really turn it up. Really turn up the heat. Cherry red. Okay. All right. Thank you, Rachel. We appreciate your time today. And the book is out on Tuesday. It went paperback. You can get it now on Amazon.com, not on bookshop.org. And the audio book is available on Spotify. Our good friends at Spotify. It's true. And it's me. And so if you like my voice, you can get more of it there. Love that. I could not imagine listening to Creation Lake with any other voice than yours, Cushman. I got to say. Yeah, I got to say. I agree. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time. And I hope to see you at Gelson's sooner than later. Welcome to Los Angeles. I'm at that Gelson's. Tell your alpha son that we say hi. Say hi. Say hi if you see me. But I'll look for you. And 6ix9ine, you'll be spottable. Very. It was fun talking to you guys. Fun talking to you. We appreciate it. Our pleasure, Rachel. Thank you so much. Thank you. Arrivederci.