066. - Kyle Chayka

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

TJ, what's up, player? What's up, player? How are you? What's up, player? Man, you know, I'm just a little frayed, TJ. I've got to be honest with you. You're afraid or you are frayed? Frayed like a pair of jeans you bought on Depop. Yeah, I mean, we've been having some conference calls today. You've been on calls all day. What about, you know, people, people think it's easy. People think I'm out here just exercising and playing tennis and looking good, but I'm actually out here getting that paper. You know what I'm saying? It's stacking guap. Right. And we don't know. I mean, thank God you are sober because otherwise how would you have the time, ability, mental and physical stamina to not only get this guap, but also to maintain such a great tan physical fitness and body and diet regimen. It's something I don't like to even think about, Jason, to be honest with you. But it is a possibility. You don't like to think about that? Why not? Well, because I don't like to think about the future, baby, and how great it is, how bright it looks. You don't want to jinx it. I don't want to jinx it. I do want to talk about last night. Okay, last night. Yesterday we played some tennis, right? We played tennis. Tennis is a sport that you and I have been into lately a little bit, and we're starting to check it out. So we might talk more about it on the show as time progresses. Just a warning, heads up to our listeners. Yeah, if you don't like that, tune out, please. So we finished our match, and then you created – you basically did a better version of the Suen, one of my favorite New York restaurants, a mainstay, a classic macro plate. Sue N's macro plate, yeah. Yes, but I got to say, I think TJ's version was better. That comes as no surprise because it's not really that hard to make it better. I mean, the beauty of the macro plate, for our listeners who don't know, a macro plate is usually found in like a Japanese leaning or a macrobiotic restaurant, which is a diet that is very much vegan.

with small elements of whole grains and usually seafood protein only if you are going to eat meat, but mostly a vegetarian or vegan. Very healthy way to live. I think that's the most healthy way that any human can live is basically be vegan but also eat some fish or seafood. But it's just a bowl of steamed rice and steamed veggies with a tahini miso sauce. But you added – let's not – But I'm saying that's what a normal macro bowl is. So the barrier for success is set pretty low. I mean it really is kind of like a peasant's meal. It's a bowl of vegan slop, but it does have – That's what my insides look like. Much like eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or something like that. It's very simple in design, but something is really satisfying about that when you eat something like that. Let's walk through the elements of the bowl that you created, the plate that you created. First of all, we come out of the gate with sushi rice. Oh, you already know what the fuck going on. You guys are ready for that sushi rice. Sushi rice, bro. It's sushi rice. My life partner decided to add a few wisps of saffron. Saffron for color and flavor. For color and flavor. And I said, careful. Saffron, a little goes a long way. You can always add more stamen, but you can never take it the way. And she had a light hand on the saffron, thank God. And it was a nice little welcome, just a kiss. blink and you'll miss the saffron and then uh and then i noticed that sue i've never eaten at sue and i've never been inside there so i just had to go off of google image search um for that i made uh steam some chunks of carrots That's my favorite part of the macro plate at Suen, to be honest with you. Nice, thick, mushy carrot dipped in that miso tahini. I mean, chub-inducing. I think that's kind of, you know, the interesting part about that stuff is it really, you know, just thinking like eating a bowl of steamed vegetables does not seem like it would take much thought at all. And it really doesn't. But, you know, there are more than one.

There's more than one way to steam a carrot, and you can have one. There's an art to it, just like cooking an omelet or a steak or whatever, like properly steaming a vegetable, each vegetable to the right doneness level. That can take your macro bowl from good to great. Gary V style. Good to great, yeah. Yeah, Jesus Christ. There's also some dinosaur kale. steamed up in there. We also have... And then I took some tofu, extra firm, which I drained in my tofu press, which was a... Much like my calves, extra firm. Continue. Yeah, I wish my calf was as firm as yours, but I do have a little bit of flop in there still. It's okay. You have time. You're only 45, so you've got some years to work on that. I'm not 45, and my calves are probably better than yours. We hate to see it. We hate to say it, but thanks to my lifespan. Just because they're longer doesn't mean they're better. The amount of hours I've spent on two wheels, Kate Bush style, chugging up that fucking hill with single speed. The calves are a movie. The thighs are a movie. The quads are not a movie. The quads are looking like twigs. Anyway, we had some dinosaur kale. When you do that, then you've got the suan bowl, which is basically just carrots, kale, and then I also steamed some Japanese sweet potato. Yeah. Broccoli. And some broccoli. And then I took... Hit him with the chickpea. You know what I'm saying? Hit him with the chickpea mix. My friend Steve, he put me onto this recipe a long time ago. Wait, you have friends other than me? I do have a lot of friends. I have more friends. I guess I'm more of a co-worker, I guess. You are a co-worker slash non-binary life partner at this point. You're a big part of my journey and my struggle. Okay.

It's deeper and somehow less deep than a friendship. Okay, sorry. So Steve put you on. It's deeper than rap. Steve, basically you take a can of garbanzo beans, just like the regular ass ones you'd find anywhere. You drain them, rinse them so they're dry, and then you give them a good dry so they're nice and dry. And then you get the smallest pot that you have in your kitchen. Fill it up with kind of a little bit more olive oil than you should. And then put the beans in with a bunch of fresh rosemary and a little bit of salt and pepper. You can do a little chili flake if you're a heat seeker. And then cook it down for like a half an hour until the beans soak up all the oil. It gets all nasty, kind of mushy. Some parts of it caramelize and get a little burnt. But it's just so good. Creates a lot of naturally occurring umami. All right. Sorry, you're boring me. What else? Sorry, I'm just drinking a lot of coffee and I'm really letting it spray. You're going off the bean. And then I did some tofu that was fried. I did a dry rub of turmeric and momofuku tingly salt, which is their version of Szechuan chili pepper Old Bay seasoning kind of thing. And guys, let me tell you. This shit was hitting hard. I've been thinking about it all day. I mean, I love a Detroit-style pizza. I loved our shrimp cocktail salmon seafood adventure night. But I think this obviously tailored for me. And then let's not forget about the bad boy dessert, which Jason crushed up some motherfucking peanuts, had me make homemade whipped cream, and then we had ice cream, guys. It's so bad. Yeah, we made just a regular ice cream sundae, classic style. Classic. So after all of that nice work we put in with an incredibly healthy meal sourced from the earth, we ruined it all with some Nancy Silverton ice cream and some whipped cream that I made with my own elbow grease. You know, we squirted that Hershey's chocolate all over, all up in that bitch too. Oh my God. Now talking about lettuce spray. Hey, you know what I'm saying? We'd let us spray with the Hershey's. There's just something really, really naughty and useless, but also essential about getting a scoop of vanilla ice cream and then putting a scoop of whipped cream on top of that.

It's just ridiculous. It's like putting a hamburger on top of a steak. It's just dumb. And it also, once you take a bite, you're like, yeah, I get it. It absolutely smashed. So now it's making me want to put a hamburger on top of a steak. We need to talk to our guests. Is that something people have done? I don't think anyone's ever done that. I'm fitting to invent it right now. I'm fitting to. All right. Yeah, we do have a guest today. Let's talk. Let's tell our listeners who our guest is. Our author and writer, uh, Kyle Chaka, um, who you might've seen his book on the internet. It was doing numbers. It's called the longing for less. Um, it's kind of his deep dive into, into minimalism and what that means, you know, post Marie Kondo. Um, and he kind of, it's, it's part memoir. It's part like study of artists and people who, who are credited with, with kind of inventing that. Um, he also wrote that great New York, New York article a couple of weeks ago about, uh, Gigi Hadid's atrocious interior design style, and also Drake's atrocious interior design style. Let's not forget that. But he contributes all over the place. You recognize him from many places if you're online. But we'll give Big Dog a call, and we're going to hear all about how I have too much stuff and how much everybody loves Donald Judd and Agnes Martin. We're about to talk to the goddamn Chris Black of minimalism. You already know what the fuck going on. All right, let's call him. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, sort of our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world... writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative, but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools.

So those future graduates can find me and, you know, I'm able to accept quote unquote donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How Long Gone. It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive. And that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code

how long taskers book up faster, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code how long with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions, but how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Kyle coming in crispy as hell, actually. Kyle sounding good. Yeah, we were talking to a different guest or maybe I was listening on a different podcast about how their prediction was in the future, every house will kind of have an area where you record your content like an old phone booth you would see in a restaurant or something like that. And it's just going to be where there's a ring light built into the wall and you have your desk and your video camera and your podcasting setup. And that's just where you do all of your media. So you're saying that you've been to Kyle's house, but you've never met him before? Pretty much. I mean, I've been to his WeWork, and it was awesome. It's interesting. I don't know if that's the future any of us want, but how realistic do you think that is? That seems very realistic to me. Really? I mean, I need it right now. It seems very realistic, because every time you have a call or...

Or if you're a member of the New York media elite, you have to appear on multiple podcasts every day. And then you have your life partner who is trying to make dinner in the other room. You have a crying kid. If you're upstate, you're working on your Alison Roman recipe. And also you need a place where you can be alone and speak candidly. The confession booth. I was about to say, Jason, this sounds like a confessional or a place you go to jerk off, but there's just a ring light there. It doesn't really go. But you can record yourself. Since we don't have our office to go to anymore where we escape from our family and children or whoever that we love but also need time away from, these little moments of solitude are our only real salvation. Yeah, Kyle, I wanted to ask you about this because I have a whole theory that the office is going to come storming back with a vengeance because people are going to want to get away from their life. He is talking about the television show, though. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. Fucking loves it. Won't shut up. I do love it, but I'm talking about the workplace in general. Do you think that after all this involuntary time at home that the office is going to be essential again but just with a different design? The open floor plan dead? I'm so thirsty for an office right now. I just want to have a swivel chair. I guess I have a swivel chair, but you know. You're dying to have somebody pop in so you can pick their brain? Yeah, exactly. Maybe some strong air conditioning and some cold brew on tap. Yeah, I think it'll be decentralized. Everyone will have their own little floor of a townhouse or something. Damn, that's how long gone office is going to look like, I guess. Jason, I forgot to tell you, we're buying a five-floor brownstone on the Upper East Side, and we're just going to each take a floor. I don't know what news you guys have been reading, but it doesn't seem like the economy is going in that direction currently.

Well, maybe for some. I've been on conference calls all morning, so you already know what that means. You already know what that means. How many townhouses can you buy with all those conference calls, Chris? Well, not directly from the conference calls, Jason. Unfortunately, I'm not at the level yet where I'm getting paid just to be on conference calls, but I could reach that point, I feel like, before this pandemic. It's called Cameo. It's called Cameo, exactly. Kyle, are you in New York? No, so I live in D.C. I lived here for like a year and a half because my girlfriend got a job down here. Wait, I didn't know that. Wow, really? Real go-go hours. I didn't know you liked Wale that much. That's crazy, dude. Are you wearing New Balance right now, Kyle? Unfortunately not, but I see a lot of them. Yeah, it's a big, that's where the popularity of New Balance really stemmed is DC. It's a little known fact. Actually, I did not know that and I'm an NB stan. Yeah, well, there you go. The DC fashion is definitely a good topic of discussion because it's gone from like bullshit formal wear to just like ass leisure, like pure ass leisure. Because you mean like the, because my experience, I used to manage a band from DC so I actually went there kind of a lot. My experience, it was everyone you would meet, no matter where. I'd be doing coke with someone in the bathroom, I'd find out they were an advisor to some senator. I feel like everybody is somehow connected to politics. Is that a realistic take on it? Yeah, I mean, it's like New York and media, right? Everyone has a blog, but instead everyone has a congressional office. Everyone in LA is, I guess, a TikToker. Exactly. That's the trifecta. Do you like it? Do you miss New York? Do you hate America? Where are you at with it? Your girlfriend won't listen to this podcast, I promise. I think we are fine with that. Yeah, I miss New York a lot. But before the pandemic, I was going there like...

Twice a month, probably. I felt like every other week I was going to New York. But now it's like, I have no good excuse. I can't necessarily see my friends anyway. It's given me the realization that the government is just a high school in this downtown of a city. And it's just school bullshit on a massive scale, killing thousands of people. Yes, yes. So you've been taking edibles? I like this. Yeah, yeah. So Kyle, you're high right now for this podcast. Has your interest in politics increased or decreased by being surrounded by it on all sides? I think aesthetically, the aesthetics of politics is more interesting. I don't know where all the offices are and the weird think tank buildings. But interest in actual politics, probably lower, if anything, unfortunately. How could it not? I mean, D.C. summers are real swampy, too. It's not a place I want to be in August, personally. No, definitely not. So that's why I'm staying inside right now. Do you think D.C.? Because if I remember correctly, someone told me that D.C., the city planning was done. obviously a very, very long time ago, maybe city planning is being generous, but like the city was laid out by a person who also did Paris or worked on Paris. So there's like a flow to that city that I don't think people realize exists because you only see like government buildings and like, you don't see like the leafy highways that are like go through the middle of the city. They're actually kind of beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Like the architecture is actually amazing. Like the little bit that I'm in. the top of Adam's Morgan. It kind of feels like European in some weird way. If you go down certain corners, you're just like, oh, there's a high wall with some beautiful townhouses and incredibly leafy everywhere. So that's nice. So there's townhouses there for us to buy, too. Exactly. I'm glad to know.

Are you finding it easier to work there with no distractions, or is it just same shit for you? I mean, it's kind of got conflated with the pandemic. I don't know. My book came out in late January. I was doing book tour stuff until the end of February. And then I came back in March and got settled. And then I've been here ever since, basically. Let's talk about the book, though, because I think we've had a lot of writer types on this podcast. Not writers, just writer types. Yeah, writer types. don't have books, Kyle. So that puts you in an upper echelon of how long gone guests or graduates, as we like to say. So I think that everyone knows that writing a book is hard as a motherfucker. And I wrote a fake book based on my tweets, and that was hard. So I can only imagine what it's like to write a real book that was like, I mean, I think it was a study on something. It was timely. It was part memoir. It was a part like a character. looking at these characters and what they meant to the movement of minimalism. Since you didn't pay somebody to write it for you, was that harder? I did the whole thing myself. It's crazy. Kyle, congratulations. That's what I was getting at, I guess. I think it'd be nice to walk people through the process of the idea. you know, what you have to do to get a book deal and an agent. And then, you know, just the whole thing is I think people have bits and pieces, but I'm not sure they understand fully how it all works. Yeah, for sure. Where do you hide all the money as well? Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is your mattress uncomfortable because it's lumpy from all the cash you have? No, you know, it's in my mattress is like all the copies of my book. I assume every author has a stash of their own shit just lying around. And I think mine is currently on the bottom shelf of a bookcase in our living room. In case a fan walks by or something and you need to give him a signed copy. Yeah, I sign one to every guest that comes through.

Oh, that's cool. You're like Derek Jeter when he sleeps with a woman. He gives her a gift bag when she leaves. That's cool. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. It's like a business card. It's like a much better business card. I say that all the time. Definitely thicker. If you don't have... Well, Jason, you're cheap ass probably using, you know, some... Vistaprint. I'm coming through with it. I learned from watching American Psycho that card stock is very important in today's business world and you really do need a great physical business card that you carry many copies around with you. I love when you talk about films. You're so smart. Sorry, Kyle. Let's get back to Kyle's fucking book that he's still promoting in August. That's why he's on this podcast. Let's talk about it. Can you believe it's already August? I can't believe it. I miss people. I miss friends. Remember Tiger King? That was eight years ago. Okay, sorry. But yeah, but seriously, Kyle, seriously. So let's start through with the spark of the idea all the way through publishing and book tour. Yeah, I mean, I think you mentioned agents, which is always like a funny... But I've been working with my agent, Caroline Eisenman, for a long time and just kind of bullshitting and throwing back and forth ideas long before I ever had any good ideas. So I appreciate her for that. New York Times Magazine had this really good column called First Words, and each piece was about one word that was particularly prominent in the discourse, or its meaning had somehow shifted. I just had this epiphany that a lot of people were talking about minimalism. This was circa late 2015 or something. Minimalism was everywhere, whether you're talking about a hotel room or a cafe interior or an outfit or a skincare routine or whatever. Everything was minimalist. So I pitched this piece on the meaning of minimalism has changed. It was an art movement that happened in the 60s and now everyone's forgotten about it and just uses the word to mean whatever they want.

And in the midst of writing that piece, I just kept discovering more facets of this question and coming upon more characters, artists and writers and philosophers that I wanted to talk about more. So while I was writing it, I was just like, yeah, there's totally a book's worth of stuff here. And it was the first topic where I was really like, this could carry a full book. Because a lot of books are just one. okay idea that you expand into 200 pages, but I really felt like this had the material. I've read Harry Potter, I get it. Yeah, you just keep up making up new magic spells and that's how you write a book, basically. You're like, what's the next chapter? That's great advice for young writers, I like that. Now, did you do the classic three-chapter, we're going to pitch it situation? Yeah, so it took a while to do the proposal. I mean, to me, the proposal is the hardest part because you're kind of describing a book that you've made up. Like you have to write an introduction for something that doesn't exist and may never exist. So it's like, how do you summarize something that doesn't actually exist yet? But yeah, so we went through the proposal process and I wrote out a bunch of different versions and worked with my agent kind of as an editor. And I ended up actually revising the proposal based on the feedback of some publishers that were interested. So that version is the one that ultimately sold to Bloomsbury. I don't know, it feels like such a collaboration. There's one name on the front, but your agent works a lot on the book. Your editor works a ton on the book. The publisher does all the packaging, and I had a really great cover designer. The cover slaps. It really feels appropriate as far as what you're about to get into. I was kind of blown away when they sent that over. I was like, oh, you want to go this far with it? That's awesome. Because the cover, for those who can't see it in this podcast, is like...

abstract shape. It looks like the cool S that people drew in middle school. That was kind of the thing. I've never heard that described as the cool S. But I knew exactly what you were talking about. Exactly, yeah. So it's like an abstract cool S but made of geometric shapes. And we'd always talked about the book as like It should be a beautiful object in itself, like a minimalist thing that you can contemplate. And so they really went for that. There's no text on the cover. There's a kind of half jacket that only covers the lower half of the book. And so it becomes this visual experience, hopefully. What's the price point on the book, Kyle? I think it's normal hardcover price, like $26 or something. I wanted to know the manufacturer's suggested retail price just because I think hardcover just drives the price up. There's no way to avoid it. The amount of resources they put into the design was really cool. It's not an art book, but there are these photographs that are printed between the chapters. I feel like it feels like a visual experience. All books should be streetwear drops or something. Well, you're going to get two guys who agree with you on that. So you're saying that Bloomsbury dealt with the design and you just gave feedback? You didn't bring your own designer to the table and make them pay your designer? Unfortunately not. I love who they picked to work on it. really annoying about design stuff. No, you don't say. That's so strange. Do you feel guilty about only having your name on the book and not all these other people that helped out? I mean, they're in the acknowledgements. The acknowledgements is kind of where you give everyone credit. I don't know, but no one's name is on the front of the book. I'm just saying that because you mentioned it earlier about all these people who...

put in all this work on it, but your name is the only one that's really on it. I thought you were talking about the ghostwriter, but I understand what you mean. I was hoping that you'd have a nasty case of imposter syndrome that we could expand upon. No, it's like, I don't know. I feel like now if the reader doesn't like it, or if someone doesn't like it, it's like, I'm responsible. No one's ever like, oh, the editing on this book was fucking shit. Yeah, only if you're a total insider and you're like, fuck, I saw this two years ago and it was so much better then. Jason doesn't read the publisher's weekly reviews. Don't worry. He's not plugged in like that. I only read Footwear Weekly, which is a new publication for me. Yeah, it's something you're starting. All right, so you finished the book. Do you feel like you've slogged? Did you feel good? Did it take longer than you thought, shorter than you thought? Yeah, so another thing that happens in book, publishing is like everything is late. So I definitely needed another six months to finish the manuscript of the book. Did that cause you delays in getting paid? Well, so the payment of a book, how it usually works is the advance is split up into three or four appointments. So you get some on signing, then you get some when they get the first manuscript, then you get some when they accept it. Authors are not making a ton of money unless your advance is super huge. So you're telling me that you didn't get $750,000 like Gia Tolentino? No, I didn't. She got that much? That's what the streets have been saying to me. But that book sold a lot. Yes, but no book is selling $750,000. That's just reality. Unless somebody's getting a TV, it's part of the TV money or it's getting optioned. The only thing that's going to make $750,000 back is the hottest new fiction. If she sold the same price of 26, whatever, that's about 28,000, 29,000 copies sold. I think that's pretty feasible for that book, right?

No, you're right, actually, you're right. That's true, that's true. But there are a lot of other expenses with it. I mean, there's the printing costs, even. But then sometimes publishers buy the international rights from the agent, and so then the book publisher sells, like, possibly her publisher sold the rights to it in, like, every other country. I can't wait to have that. I can't wait until I get my copy of Trick Mirror in Estonian that I pre-ordered. I can't wait until that hits the fucking mailbox. Yeah, in Soviet Russia, Mirror Trick U. Yeah, you're right. It's different. So it was late six months. That's okay. Yeah, it was like everyone was patient. It was a really iterative process, I guess. I didn't just hand my editor a full manuscript. I was checking in. with all these chapters and stuff. So it felt like good. You did some traveling too, right? To gain perspective and really complete the work. Yeah, do my research. Particularly Marfa and Kyoto were big spots. So basically you took your advance and you blew it on Kyoto like your Phoebe Bridgers or something. Exactly, yeah. This is my song. This is my hit single. This is your single? Is Kyoto the most minimal place in the world? I feel like Tokyo might be. Because Kyoto is so traditional that you don't get the cliche super empty aesthetics as much. I've been to Marfa quite a few times actually in my life. It's great. I like it and I think it's cool, but I didn't have some emotional experience that I feel like people have in Big Sur and in Marfa. There's these places that white people just get the biggest hard-ons for. I'm like, no, this shit is cool. I really fuck with Donald Judd. This shit is crazy out here. The fact that he started this and just made it work for him and the space and the whole thing. Also, it's like you're in Texas and there's two restaurants.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's like nature. Like you're supposed to vibe with the nature, which is not something I do very often. Well, we have that in common. I'd also not vibe with nature at all. So maybe that's our problem. Yeah, like Marfa is not, like the art is amazing and it's a great art destination. It's incredible. No, it's incredible. I agree. But you're still, I don't know. When I started walking around, I was like, this feels like Martha's Vineyard in the desert, kind of. Because it's kind of like some rich people sitting in the courtyard of their desert house and doing whatever. I love that one. The Michelin star restaurant there is incredible, though. Yeah, I mean, there's a great wine bar now. It's super gentrified. It's like a gentrified art town in the desert where you can buy a cowboy hat. I hope the gym is still there. There's a great independent gym on Main Street there. Yeah, that's a great place. That's a great place. So did you, was this like the, because that to me with the Judd stuff is as far as you can go. Once you go to the apartment in New York and once you go to Marfa, that's kind of it, right? Or is there more that I'm not aware of or more that you had to uncover? No, I mean, there's like, he did this hotel in Switzerland or he was like turning this hotel into a... house or something. To me, Marfa and the Soho apartment, the entire warehouse building, are definitely the peak Donald Judd. The Soho apartment, I didn't go in until last year, and it really blew me the fuck away. It's so incredible. I can't believe I put it off for that long. I live down the street. I cannot believe I put it off for that long. I was truly blown away, but it's really hard as a New Yorker to wrap your mind around people actually living like that in Soho. Yeah, it's an earlier era. I think it's the largest single-family dwelling, and it's an entire building. It's so hard to wrap your mind around somebody getting that for $300,000 and just living there. It's disheartening. So you take these trips, you finish the book.

It's late. And then what do we do next? It comes out. You had an excerpt. The excerpt was in The Guardian? Yeah, I had a bunch of excerpts. There was one in The Guardian. There was one in Harper's. There was a few different ones. The Nation. So you kind of parcel them out. Well, you want to hype your own book, right? It's like the more venues that... that it gets exposure and the better, I guess. But you do kind of feel like you're giving it away. Did you use an in-house publicity or did they hire someone or you have your own person? They have all their publicity stuff. So that was definitely, like, I made a bunch of lists. Of where you wanted to be? Well, it's like who I thought might be good to try to talk to or whatever. What was your best experience or what was something that you got that you may have not thought you were going to get? Probably Joe Rogan. Did you do Rogan? No, that would be amazing. He's a big proponent of sensory deprivation tanks, which was another thing. Are you sensory hive? Yeah, they're awesome. I don't know if they're functioning right now. I don't know if, I think the private sector of sensory deprivation is probably thriving more than open to the public ones. Yeah, the in-home. Because you got to pee in there, you know what I mean? If you're doing it right, you're letting it go. So you didn't do Rogan, but yeah, what was something you were like, all right, I fucking made it? Like a New York Times review, obviously, but is there other stuff that really shook you? Yeah, I mean, Gia Tolentino reviewing it was a little minor. Damn, damn, when my two heroes collide. I was on my laptop one morning, weeks after the book came out or whatever, and I think I searched the title or I searched my name on Twitter. And then the top result was some New Yorker link. And I was like, oh, what's going on here? And then I opened the link and just slammed my laptop shut. Because I couldn't handle it.

It was like in a television show or a movie when the person gets their letter back from college, whether or not they're going to be admitted. I can't do it, I can't do it. I can't open it. Here's a dirty secret is I haven't read the full review. What? How far did you make it? I don't know, two paragraphs. Did Gia just eviscerate you or what? No, I mean... I've heard that it's a good review, but the New Yorker mode of reviewing is to kind of like recap the book in the first section and then start over the second section with like, in this new book by author Kyle Chayka, blah, blah, blah. So I didn't want to get to that point. So you were able to read them telling you what your own book was about. Exactly. I'm like, damn, this sounds so familiar. This is a great review. They nailed it. They absolutely nailed this. They really understand me. It seems like minimalism is a prominent topic in today's discourse. I'm glad somebody wrote a book about it. I feel like you were inescapable there for a little while. You know what I mean? Yeah, I feel super lucky. Especially timing-wise, the book launch went really well. I got to do events which were super fun. And I kind of had a chance before everything grinds to a halt. So did you go to London and speak with Tyler Brulé directly about how much you love the police? Or was that a different event that I wasn't aware of? I'm hoping we can make that appointment up. some other time i mean maybe tyler's down right now but well if you're willing to go to switzerland i'm sure he's you know what i mean i'm sure it's fine but i i feel like monocle is is i feel like you talk about monocle kind of often and we've talked about it a lot on the podcast because the shit he said about the police is just so crazy to me and like he his out of touchness is usually endearing and like kind of funny because he's just like a rich white guy you know

But I think he took it too far. Do you think he'll see any repercussions from this, or does no one actually care? I think the only repercussion is... I think you can cancel Tyler Brule. I think we've got to get Brule on the pod. You really do. Are you kidding? He wouldn't even answer my DM, bro. There's no way. I'll get it done. I have a plug. Maybe if you send nudes, I don't know what he's into, but you could try that. I'm going to Brule his fucking inbox. But I do think he's... I'm not trying to cancel him. I just think he is Teflon when it comes to anything. But that's because he set himself up to be like, well, I'm just above all of this shit. I don't even know what you peons are talking about. Right, and it's always semi-ironic. You never quite know when he's putting it on. Very Epstein-like. Very Epstein-like, exactly. Yeah, very Epstein-like. But I don't – I do love Monocle historically. What do you think about this other magazine, Courier? I feel like this is kind of a new – Yeah, this is like new Monocle, right? And I don't – I like it. I think it's pretty interesting. I think it's good. And it's definitely more approachable and probably more appealing to people like us. But it's less aspirational, which I think was always part of the – I mean, that's what I like magazines for in general. You know what I mean? Even if it's a – The extremity of the – Yeah. Yeah, like I want it to be extreme. You want it to be the glimpse of some intense reality that you think exists, but actually maybe doesn't exist. Because I'm in LA, which is a cultural wasteland, as you know, I'm finding it extremely... I'm really going through magazine withdrawal because they don't have anything here. You can't get anything. Sorry, we don't have Garden and Gun, Chris. Garden and Gun, first of all, subscribe to, so don't worry about that. Kyle, I'm sorry, what were you saying? Have you seen this magazine, Subsequence? Or have we talked about it? No, Kyle, bless me with the info. Love the name. This is like Japanese magazine. I'm blanking on the fashion brand that puts it out. But it's this magazine that costs $60. I'm in, I'm sold. The cover is like...

made from persimmon dye, and it's, like, woven. The binding is woven. I'm not kidding. So it's, like, capital or, like, VisVim or something? VisVim, yeah. Oh, it's VisVim. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So, you know, it's, like, I can see aspirational. I'm, like, so rarefied that it's, like, barely comprehensible. Yes, but unfortunately, see, that's not the, like... To me, Fantastic Man, they've ruined the magazine now. But before, it was so good and so aspirational. I could not. I thought it was great. I loved it. I really, really liked it. And I just don't think anybody's doing anything that. Maybe this is just not the time for aspiration. Well, I feel like subsequent, the mode of aspiration is much more like flee to the woods and learn how to do ceramics. Yeah, totally. So it's a little more approachable. What's it called? Snow peak kind of energy? Yes, totally. Also, I'm on the Subsequence website and their Subsequence sweatshirt crew neck is $440. Their t-shirt is $195 and their dad hat is $255. Oh my god. That's fire. Their canvas tote is $230. Oh my god. Wait till we launch the full How Long Gone web store. We're going to really try to come with these prices. Now that I know there's comps out there, I feel confident charging what we deserve. It's like Monocle. You need to make people pay for the association with you. But I think that's the thing. I think the monocle tote went the way of the Outdoor Voices tote, where it's like, oh, I can't be seen with that. That's clown shit. Especially now. But it gets so big that it's like, you can't control who your customer is. That's the issue with all of this stuff. With Subsequence, it's like, I barely know anyone who would like this. I know you would like it. It's like, who's going to get that tote bag? I have honestly no idea.

I think the, I'm, I don't know. I don't know if the merch thing, I feel like it's here to stay in general. Obviously those prices are crazy, but I think that that is still a way people like to identify themselves and identify others. You know what I mean? And I don't think, I thought it might go away, but I don't think it's going to go away. I think it's just part of the lexicon from here on out. What is the point? Is the merch the point or is the magazine or the website of the podcast the point? I can say for 100% certain that merch is the point of this podcast. That's the right answer. I think it's possible to have multiple points that are all as important as the last. But I think merch has become a great way for people to patronize certain things that they want to help support in a way that's not just donation-based, you know? Yeah, what do you think about digital panhandling like Patreon? Yeah, I mean, I have this writer collective called Study Hall, and we ran it on Patreon for a long time. And basically for as much grifting as you think people do on Patreon, Patreon is the actual grift. It's just like a WordPress site with a paywall and you end up paying it hundreds of dollars a month for nothing. Is there any competition looming? Is there somebody that's going to make that model better and sexier? I mean like Substack. But Substack is kind of the same thing. I'm MailChimp Hive. I'm MailChimp only. MailChimp gang. I think eventually Apple Pay or Google Pay or something like that will set it up because Because Patreon is used for so many more things than just reading a text-based document or a blog or something. There's audio and video and all different things that need to be unlocked with this. And I think in the next few years, somebody will at least come up with the idea and then Apple and Google will steal it or just buy it.

I told you about this, Jason, but I don't know if you've seen this, Kyle, but a friend of mine had a very popular Tumblr and Instagram that was all kind of like technical inspiration. It's called TechSpec, and it was kind of like... It was like Arterics, like outdoor, but super crazy. He had 50,000 images or something, and he turned it into a Patreon, and... is charging $1.11 per month and is fully making money with that system. And I think it's so brilliant. I haven't seen people use it like that. So I think that I like because there's no other way for those people to make money. Right, it's like a way to monetize a creative act that wouldn't otherwise be monetizable, like curating stuff or collecting. It's hard to have a manscaped ad on your mood board Tumblr. That's what I'm saying, but it's like there are other podcasts that will use Patreon. I would rather just wait. We make money from ads and we might make less, but eventually it's going to be fine and we've saved face and feel cooler. It's a long play. Patreon is about community stuff too, right? I think all these things show that community is valuable to people. That's true. Our community just exists on my DMs, you know what I'm saying? It's exclusive. Kyle, is that faux community or do you think that's real? I mean, I think... For the people who have bought into it, it's probably real. For people who have to pay for it, it is real, or at least it feels real. It's like paying for a subreddit, I guess. I'm sure the Trapa Trap House comment section is lively, but I want no part of it, and I never want to see it. It has to be quite lively. Quite lively is a very nice way of putting it. Do you use Reddit? No, I don't. I mean, it's fascinating to me for enabling niche subcultures and stuff, but Tumblr was doing that for me. And Tumblr was kind of more visionary, or one person could kind of show their vision. Yeah, but you can't have titties on Tumblr anymore, so that's kind of the problem. No, they destroyed it. It's really sad. What's the problem? I mean, unbelievable. These big corporations come in, they take away their titties. It's fucking bullshit.

Why is no one talking about this? This is a free speech problem or something. This is yet another free speech problem. These people, they're making me wear a mask. They're not letting me look at titties. It's unbelievable. It's actually, why do I even live here anymore, Jason? Why aren't we taking, we should take this podcast overseas. It doesn't seem that hard to just start a new Tumblr. Just be like, we just took Tumblr. We took all the code and everything and just made a new Tumblr. But you can have dicks on it again. And it seems like that should solve all of our world's problems. I kind of agree. Do you know Arena? Yeah, it's great. Arena is kind of that vibe, but I feel like it's more static, right? It's not so much about your feed of stuff. It's also graphic designerly in a way that keeps people out. It's a little more typography and a little less feet pics. Exactly. Whereas Tumblr is both. typography. Yeah, exactly. For someone like me who is equally as passionate about feet as I am typography, I need a place to go where I feel seen. You know what I mean? I need a place to go. But I'm not a big Redditor either, but then I have a few friends that will be like, bro, it's the source. Anything you need is there, and they're right. I have to be honest. Every time I look, it really is like that. But I don't participate. I don't participate in a conversation. I just want to follow someone else's vision of something. I like substacks and newsletters and stuff because you actually get a sense of what one person is thinking about. Do you have a newsletter? Yeah, but I don't use it enough. I send out one a month, maybe. Is that because you're like, I don't give a fuck about this because I'm making money writing and I don't want to do it for free? Yeah, I mean, I feel like it's also because it mainly exists for self-promotion and I never want to actually send out my stuff. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess the only way I self-promote is on social media. I feel like an inbox is extreme for that, but maybe that's how people actually will read stuff or pick up on stuff.

Yeah, I mean like Robin Sloan, the novelist, has a bunch of newsletters and his always feel really awesome because it's basically just really well curated stuff that he's interested in. And not so much about what he's making or publishing, but just what he's looking at and experiencing. And that to me is the way to go. A lot of these guys that I know, like a lot of these early menswear guys I know that have a following, like Michael Williams, who does a continuous lean, he's brought it back as a newsletter. And I feel like he's getting a lot of subscriptions. So it's interesting just to take the... The blog is dead, but the newsletter lives in its place is what it feels like. And I don't know why it's the same shit. It's the same shit. Well, you don't have to open up your web browser and click through. You just wake up and it's sitting in your inbox. It's just easier for you. I mean, but is it? Yes, of course, but we're all on the internet all fucking day anyway. You know what I mean? It's not like we're not on the internet. We have to log on to look at a website. It'll tell you when there's a new update there. You don't have to go and click and be like, oh, it's the same shit. They haven't updated. It's just more efficient. It just makes more sense. I mean, look, I have a newsletter. I read tons of them. I participate in the medium. I just think it's interesting that people think it's revolutionary where it's literally a blog. Would you ever consider monetizing? What did you say? Would you ever consider monetizing your newsletter or having a paywall? We've had discussions about that. I mean, I think that the new consumers, that's my favorite that I pay for. Besides airmail, of course. The ultimate newsletter. That hasn't been canceled yet? Bro, airmail is thriving. I pay my $50 a year happily. Just because you subscribe does not necessarily mean that they're thriving, Chris. I guarantee you airmail is thriving. Kyle? I feel like Ermel is thriving too, unfortunately. Don't unfortunately me, okay? We're great in Hive on this side. They put out a lot of stuff. It's really impressive what they do every week. Despite being friends with Epstein, yeah, he's done a lot. Hey, relax, Jason. Graydon was never on the island. He was busy having a nice piece of fish at the Beatrice, okay? They got kids there too?

Well, if you like mac and cheese from the Waverly Inn, if you'd had the mac and cheese from the Waverly Inn, Jason, maybe you'd understand. Right, right, right. I'd be singing a different tune. It's different. I mean, Graydon just looks like he's fucking with kids, though. I mean, you have to give me that. Just to stereotype and generalize his appearance, he looks good. I am not going to say. Jason, I don't talk about your heroes. You don't hear me saying. You don't hear me talking about Boy's Noise and Steve Aoki this way. Would you consider Graydon to be a hero of yours? No, but I do think Graydon represents something. Again, Kyle, this is what we're talking about. He represents aspiration to me. I loved Vanny Fair and read it so much, and I think it felt aspirational, and he was the leader of that. Aspiration is canceled, though, now, Chris, so you're going to have to move on. Well, I know. Do you follow Thomas Chatterton Williams on Instagram? I don't. Tell me more. So he was one of the authors of the Harper's letter about free speech and stuff. Never mind, don't tell me more. No, it's very funny because his intellectual persona is like, okay, I'm a warrior for free speech and I'm going to say the truth no matter what. And then his Instagram is just like... thirst pics on beaches in France where he lives. It's just pure lifestyle. I'm like, man, I just want to know about your lifestyle. I don't care about your critical opinions. What beach should I go to? Is that beach private? How does it work, dude? Is it your friends or did you rent it? What magazines do you read? What do you subscribe to, Kyle? That's the real question. Oh, man. I should subscribe to more magazines, honestly. Chris, people can't afford to subscribe to magazines in 2020. Well, when you work, when your income is from magazines, it's a little disrespectful not to. That's why I'm asking. Like, The New Republic, I subscribe to and I love. That's not a cheap one. That's not a cheap one. That's not a cheap one. No. No. I mean, I feel like I buy Monocle. I don't subscribe to it.

I'm also really sad because I feel like so much of my magazine experience was through bookstores and just buying a bunch of stuff. And now it's like I don't get to do that as much. I have incredible flashbacks, like going to the airport and spending $50 on magazines before getting on the plane. And everything from Monocle and The New Yorker to Us Weekly and Star, my other favorite titles. She runs the gamut. She runs the gamut. You get a variety. I recently got a subscription to the London Review of Books, and that's been amazing. This is going to go over Jason's head, so talk slowly. London is a city, right? The realization that I had is that LRB is a better magazine than most magazines. It's supposedly reviews of books, but it's really just essays about random shit mixed with personal snapshots from all of these writers. So like the last issue had this essay or like diary from a like pseudonymous oil executive just about like flying around the Middle East and like bribing airport security guards. And it was like the most fun essay I've read in so long. That sounds very sick. It's so stylish. It's just like really like cool. Yeah, it sounds like a George Clooney movie. So what book is this reviewing? How did I find this in this otherwise history of whales or whatever? How much is this subscription running you? I think it's only like $30 a year or something. I find it very worthwhile. Well, I tell people all the time, magazines and subscriptions are dirt cheap for most stuff. It's very affordable for stuff that if you buy one or two, you should just subscribe. Oh yeah, so I haven't canceled my Bon Appetit subscription yet. And I was like flipping through the most recent issues. Wait, why would you cancel Bon Appetit? Well, the reason that I would cancel it now is because the magazine is really bad. Isn't it really bad? My life partner has a subscription as well because she got it for whatever, $7. And every issue that has come since their reckoning is just really, it's just bad.

There's nothing to it. There's no substance. It's been neutered. It was already quite neutered before, and now it's a super newt. You guys are, this Bon Appetit shit is so dorky. It's like, get your recipe somewhere else. Who cares? Like, just get a recipe from somebody somewhere else. Well, they used to sort of, you know, steer the ship in terms of food trends in the world. And, you know, it was a big deal. It was like a big resource. And if something made it in there, then it was worth noting perhaps. There was an aspirational vibe to it before. It was like, oh, I really want to rent a villa in France and have a chef make a fancy lunch for me and my friends. It was also kind of fun to talk shit on it and hate if you considered yourself to be a step above their comprehension level of food or whatever it was. And now all of that is gone. It's literally just snarky captions written in internet voice, which I do not want to see in a printed magazine. You should be above the fray, I would agree. I get it, but it's such a small microcosm of the world, and I feel like I hear about it constantly. Yeah, it's the intellectual journal of our time. It's just about food bullshit. These nerds, like, first of all, who's watching YouTube videos, you fucking dorks? Like, what? Well, I watched a lot of, first of all, a lot of people watch YouTube videos, Chris. I'm just kidding. I know, I know. But I watched it in some of their shows I found to be interesting. And it was curious to see. Bon Appetit in the video space grow organically out of nothing into something that was quickly taking over. And it was sort of changing the face of food media completely. And that was kind of interesting and exciting to pay attention to. And now that has been obviously destroyed. Because they only hire and give money to whiteys. But I guess so does everybody else.

They're just the first people to get caught doing it. I just don't. I just can't. But in the grand scheme of the world and everything going on and food and cooking and life and culture, it is merely a blip on the radar. Like I read Leandra, Leandra from Man Repeller's apology. And then the kid from Bon Appetit who had like a 14 slide Instagram apology back to back. And I was like, did I, did either of you say anything? I don't think anybody said anything in these, but you know, great use of sub stack. Yeah. You have a choice now you can do your apology on newsletter or Instagram slides or whatever. Back in my day, we did a screenshot of the notes app. Whenever, whenever. Yeah, now it's multimedia. It's multimedia. God, that's so bad. You'll have to sign your apology. Yeah, I have an After Effects plug-in for cancellation apologies if anyone wants to buy it off of it. Yeah, that's a good idea. Now, that's something Patreon. Are you listening, The Onion? Because here I come. God damn it. I just can't begin to care. I just really can't. I just think it's so unimportant. But I guess everybody thinks their industry is the most important one. And we also need a distraction right now to really be able to say what we care about and our strong feelings against something because we can't speak them about actual problems in the world or real terrible things happening. We have to have a strong opinion about what's going on in the world of quinoa. I have a very strong opinion about not wearing masks, so I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, I mean, if you subscribe to his Super Spreader's journal, Chris can lay all of this out and more. A Hitchhiker's Guide to Super Spreading. For only $5 a month, you can hear me talk about super spreading and not wearing masks. That's all it is. It's cheap. It's so cheap. Sure, I'm infecting a lot of people, but can I be infecting more? All these platforms don't.

edit their content or don't moderate their content. So even Substack, there are all these very creepy problematic newsletters that are now making a shit ton of money for them. Now is that some free speech QAnon shit? Yeah, yeah. There's conspiracy theories, there's a lot of wellness stuff. It's just like, what do you want to be responsible for? It's the same problem that Facebook is facing with all that stuff. Is it their duty to censor who gets censored and why? That's where it gets really tricky. But now people are paying for it because this is what they want. So it's harder to say that the Facebook algorithm is making people believe conspiracy theories when they're literally paying $5 a month. And dying to. There should be a mask. I'm sure there's some anti-mask newsletter. Yeah, it's called Chris Black's newsletter. I'd say $5 a month. No, but I think that this is the thing with all this stuff. I mean, this is what Alison Roman is doing. She's like, all right, I can't use the channels I was using before, so I'm going to have a newsletter that you pay for. You're going to get the content you want from me. I think that's the thing with all this stuff. If you have a true following and people really care what you have to say, they're going to pay for it and they're going to find you, whether it's anti-mask or it's recipes. That's the power of the internet is you can galvanize your following and they will pay you directly. And I think the pandemic also has switched that into high gear because people... We're losing income from these normal streams, and now they've just gone direct, and it's fucking working. Everybody sees it working. Yeah, you're making less money, but you're splitting it with nobody. You don't have to split it with Bon Appetit or YouTube or whatever it is. It's just all straight profit. Yeah, it's self-perpetuating. It probably grows faster. subscriptions accelerate. The more people you subscribe to, the more are going to subscribe to you, probably. It's just enabling you to do more of the same work, except you're just building your own echo chamber. You don't have an editor. You don't have a copy editor. You don't have someone telling you that maybe you shouldn't post this thing. Yeah, we know that. That's the only reason I keep Jason around. I do think that's interesting.

I, though, and maybe you agree with me, I like the cosign, though, of a publishing entity. I want to be associated with the strategist. I want to be associated with GQ. I don't want to just be Chris Black with a newsletter. It's not as sexy to me, but maybe I'm just old. Totally. No, but it provides a context in which your work can be understood. Your strategist column makes sense on the strategist, and it functions in this ecosystem, whereas a newsletter just kind of floats in space. Yeah, I like newsletters, but I feel like there's a lot there. I don't know. I like it, and I read them, and I appreciate them, and I actually really love doing one. We do the public announcement newsletter five days a week, and I really enjoy it. We've actually gotten business from it, and it's really beneficial. But then it's like, how personal do we make it? And the intro, I don't know. You're right. There's just no gatekeepers, and it's a very different animal all together. It's the same thing as podcasting. Yeah, that's true. No filter. But this is why I think I also don't like to send out my own newsletter, because I like having editors. And I like an editor being like, why don't you write about this thing? Or maybe you should cut this paragraph. The beauty of it now is you don't have to work with the editor that has been bestowed upon you. You can hire whatever your favorite editor is. You can hire your dream editor. Yeah, these people, that's why they're doing the newsletter, so they can choose their own editor and pay them out of pocket. That's what's happening. Once you get to a certain level, do you think Joe Rogan is uploading his own episodes? Do you think he's editing his own pods? He's not. Kyle, I'm sure you have a reader that goes over your stuff. You talk to people about it. You talk to your peers and get gut checks on stuff. You reach out to KyleHive subreddit. Exactly. Personal subreddits. I think it's very important.

Freelance editors should be more of a thing, though. I agree with you. Luckily, I have people that are nice enough to do it for me. That's not a thing people talk about or think about, I feel like. Their work is less visible. Your favorite editor is the person who makes the magazine happen, but you don't know who they are or what they're doing. I try not to let any writing out of my inbox unless Rachel Taschen has looked at it. Dead ass. It is vitally important to me for that level of eyeball to see what I'm doing and tell me if I'm a fucking idiot or not. It's just really important. It's like the way people used to think. Someone would go into a studio and make a song themselves, and that was it. It didn't take eight writers and a songwriting camp and a producer and a drum programmer. No one does anything alone. It's not good to work alone. I don't think it's going to create the best product. Totally. And good editorial is also a community. You have a bunch of voices and you have a bunch of inputs all putting something together. And I think that makes good stuff. No, you're right. I agree with you. I agree with you. I think the more collaboration, the better in cases like that, usually. Sometimes it's hard to ask for help, you guys. Jason, you have no problem. It's something we're all struggling with on a daily basis, okay? I know, I know. Kyle, we need to talk about this important... This important Gigi Hadid Drake New Yorker. Yeah, yeah. The Gigi Hadid apartment photos that she also released herself, which is also shocking. It shook me to my core. That's a good example of somebody who needed some editing. Exactly, exactly. As someone who has been Gigi Hive from day one, I've been forced to change my allegiances to Bella Hive now after this.

revelation of her interior design choices. Chris was a fan since before she was 18. That's how far it goes back, Kyle. I don't think you understand. What do you think about it all? I want you to summarize it for the people who aren't paying for the New Yorker login. Yeah, get it from someone else and then log in. Exactly. Pirate it. She put out this Instagram slideshow of her dream New York apartment. It was really shocking because it was both very normal and very fancy at the same time somehow. The real shocker was the kitchen cabinets. The front of the kitchen cabinets was clear plexiglass filled with dried pasta that had been tie-dyed different colors. Listen to that when you say it out loud. Since you did deep research for this, is that something Is that like a trend somewhere in the world? It's some artist in, I think, Seattle. Yeah, she hired a guy that does it. And this was his Michelangelo. This is his piece de resistance. I want to know how much we think that costs. That's the real question. How much is Gigi, what's the check looking like to get dried pasta painted? Chris, are we talking about parts and labor or just the ideation process? I'm going to guess, much like turning in a book, it's a tiered payment system. You know what I mean? I think the whole thing was done from the idea to the execution, the install, and everything. Let's call it $3,500. No way. No way. More than that. No, when a famous person bangs your line, you instantly add 50%. Look, how much business is this? This is literally his first customer that's ever given him money for this. It's something that anyone can just do on Etsy in five minutes or figure out how to do from like a YouTube tutorial from a woman who lives in Nebraska can teach you how to do this. And some guy's like, I don't know. You need the pedigree shit. You need like the one pasta artist. Yeah, you can't name. Yeah, I agree. I only want the highest caliber. I will find him, DM him, and ask him for the invoice, a copy of the invoice.

Kyle, what do you think it means? What does it say about my queen, Gigi? I feel like, to me, it was like normcore almost. To me, it looked like a dorm room. Celebrities, they're just like us. Right. The fashion or taste that they participate in is not necessarily their own personal taste that they want in their house. I think that was... I hate to be subjected to it, to be honest. Like, I want the fantasy to continue, and now the fantasy is dead. Yeah, it's, like, too intimate. Yeah, they say don't meet your idols, don't look at your idols' kitchen cabinets either, I guess. What about, now let's talk about Drake's OVO mansion on the bridal path in Toronto. The most, maybe the ugliest house I've ever seen. I mean, like, Gigi's is at least, like, Kind of homely in a way. Like Drake's feels like the worst hotel in Dubai times a hundred. Yeah. Gigi looks like if, if like the barefoot Contessa got really drunk and just read it. Exactly. But do you think Drake looks at his house and is like, God damn it. I fucked up. My house sucks. Like, do you think, or do you think he really thinks it rules? I'm sure he loves it. I don't know. Cause like it was so, he was like, I want this to last for a hundred years. Like he wants this to be a monument. to his taste. It's built out of limestone. It's like a pile, as they call it in England or whatever. In the words of Drake himself, you don't really want the views. In America, we would call his house a pile as well, but I think it has a different meaning. What do you make of it? Is it just nouveau riche, like new money, bad taste, or is it deeper than rap? I feel like, no. I feel like it literally is North American Baroque. The ceilings are so high. You think it's what? I'm sorry, you think it's what? It's like North American Baroque. Sounds like an LCV sound system song title. But yeah, that does make a lot of sense. It's just so ornate.

That shit is so serious. Gigi's house is not serious. There was that Netflix documentary about the house, like the biggest house in America that never got built. Did you see that? Drake's house is like if somebody, like it took a Canadian to actually get the worst, biggest house built. And that's what it is. I mean, how do you even live in that house? Do you think he just wakes up? I'm going to like make some toast. and drink my grapefruit juice and start the day. Jason, see, this is why you're never going to be rich unless I make you rich is because you got a broke boy mentality. No, no, no, no. Drake wakes up and his staff does that shit for him, bro. He ain't doing shit. Yeah, but it's just not real. It's not sustainable a way of life. I don't think he's going to really find happiness there. You end up living in, like, presuming you live in a castle, you'd end up living in one or two rooms. You're like, oh, I just go between my bedroom and the kitchen. Exactly. 50,000 square foot house, right? You know where the boy lives, guys? He lives in the fucking gym and in the fucking bedroom where he's putting in work. That's where fucking Drake lives. That's where he's fucking Kris Jenner. Yeah, y'all, you don't really want the views? I see Kris Jenner, I beep twice and I wave. I hope to one day visit the OVO mansion, and I honestly think that could maybe happen for me. Chris, how does it feel that your strongest chance of visiting the OVO mansion is through me? It's not through you, Jason. How does that make you feel? It's not through you, but if I go, what I'm trying to say is... Does it make you upset, Chris? No, because... Say I'm upset in the Drake voice, for me. I'm upset! Thank you. But the thing is, is that it is so tacky, but the question I'm having is, do you think that is aspirational for someone?

Oh yeah, totally. Having your own mirrored lounge is totally aspirational. It's an aspiration for millions of terrible people who have awful taste. But do you think they even have awful taste, or do you think they just like Drake, so they like what Drake does? I wish it was more Drake. I feel like it would be moodier or something. It's so grandiose. You want more Marvin's room. Yeah, totally. What would that vibe be? Oh, God. What's that in interior decorating? I don't know. He would fill up his Berkey water filter with lean. And it would be very cool, actually. Sounds like it would be very motherfucking cool. It would be an iPad that has Pornhub pulled up, a box of tissues, and a Mountain Valley gallon container of lean. I don't think Drake jerks off, to be honest with you. I think Drake only jerks off. What do you mean you don't think Drake jerks off? I think that when you're at his level, that's not part of your lexicon anymore. He just pays somebody to jerk him off? You don't think he has a room for that? Come on. I don't think he has. Yeah, Drake definitely has multiple jack-off rooms. That's a good point. They just didn't show it in Architectural Digest. You know it. Oh, what is this door? No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. We mustn't go. Do you think this is a black eye for Architectural Digest? Or is it they had to do it because he's such a celebrity? They have no choice. I feel like this is what they like. It's like trolly content almost. It's like, oh, you want rich people houses? Here's the tackiest, most extreme level of that that you could possibly see. And I feel like you're kind of trolling your readership a little bit. Yeah, it is a fine line, though. Because when you would watch MTV Cribs, the best ones are the worst houses. Because then you can be like, oh my god, look at the way this famous person lives. If I had that much money, it would be really cool. Not like this one. But Architectural Digest, they felt always above that. So I guess the Architectural Digest of 2020 is going to troll and show terribly ugly houses.

We've talked about Architectural Digest a lot in our group chat. I'm sure you're familiar with Jay Balvin's vacation home. Yeah, yeah. Of course, a minimalist dream. Which was honestly surprisingly cause low. I thought there was going to be so much more bad. Yeah, what was the over-under on the cause sculptures? Is it two? There's only two, and I was expecting six and maybe a Coons. So you made the spread just barely. I made the spread. I made $100 off of David Cho. It's great. I'm rich now. Do you look at Architectural Digest often, or do you just look at the highlights? I just look at the stories. No, I think Architectural Digest is great. I do too. It's an institution. I mean, between that and T Magazine and World of Interiors, it's just like a parade of ridiculous interiors, which is awesome. I love all of that as well. That's great. Where does your love of ridiculous interiors and your standing of minimalism, where do those things intersect? Minimalism can be ridiculous and extreme too. The Kanye West house is just a total circus of minimalism. You mean the ugly, the concrete shit? Yeah, the just like total vacuum, no anything interior. Yeah, where it's so minimal that it becomes just insanely maximal. You know, Kyle's talking a lot of shit. Kyle, what you got in the crib? Mr. Kanye shit sucks. Kyle's crib looks like the motherfucking Muji store, baby. It's minimal AF. I wish. How much mid-century vintage furniture do you got, bro? How many things have we bought in the past two months? I think five or six pieces of furniture, unfortunately. Really? Yeah. There's an amazing vintage for NDC called Goodwood, and they just have really cheap mid-century stuff. You were cutting out. What was it called? Goodwood. Goodwood. I believe that's the name of a vintage car race in London, I believe.

Wow, Jason, thanks for that fact. Cool, Jason, continue. All my Aston Martin heads love that reference. They have very good vintage furniture, and so it's like you can get a nice wardrobe or something for like $400 instead of $2,000. So Kyle's back here copping, is what you're trying to say. Yeah, also art. I've been buying a lot of art during the pandemic. He didn't even have to do a book tour. Maybe they just gave him the money because the tour got canceled. A lot of artists are selling stuff through Instagram now. I think that's the life hack. Galleries are having tons of problems. It's hard to see art in any way. Now artists are really selling directly more often, I think. I see art everywhere because that's just kind of my outlook on life, but I know what you mean. God damn it. But it's good. You should support visual artists. I feel like not enough people buy art. Sometimes Chris will see just an empty parking lot and then be like, fuck, and then that'll make the grid. Look, I agree with you, and I think a lot of people bought prints to support charities, but there's other art out there. And I had a great idea actually of starting a framing business, a low cost framing business to frame all these charity prints. Oh, so that's like a, it's like an add on like when, like you would like how PayPal is built into eBay. Like you want to buy this shit, just click this button and then it automatically loads black, black frame. And then would you like to use black frame to flame, frame your print? Black Frame went out of business, so this is my chance to buy the intellectual property. That's actually a good idea. Was that like a PR firm? Yeah, it was a big one, actually. Hopefully they let the domain slip. They definitely did. Those motherfuckers are out to lunch. Damn, this has been a very productive podcast, I have to say. We're getting a lot done. We're getting a lot done. Kyle.

Wow, we went an extra 15 minutes with Big Dog. I didn't even look at my questions. Yeah, me neither. Kyle, how many podcasts have you done, bro? Too many with this book, honestly. Oh, okay, so you're a season C. What's the biggest podcast you did? Since you're talking all bad. What NPR show did you do, Kyle? Which episode of Reply All were you on? I didn't see it. My biggest shit show with the book was I was supposed to be on DC local TV one morning, and I just completely forgot. What? I didn't show up to the studio. It was terrible. You didn't forget to reply to the email. You booked it, and you forgot to show up to the set. when you were scheduled to appear. It was really bad, and I apologize to that channel. I'm not a pro, but I think talking about the book now is a lot more fun. Because it's not press tour. It feels like you can have some breathing room and actually think thoughts again. You're going to get the how long gone bump on Amazon, don't worry. I want a hat. I need the swag. Well, we're coming. Actually, it's funny you mention a hat. We actually have one coming. It's at the embroidery place right now. Just send us your credit card and we'll get one out to you. $240. Since you've been buying all this art, we just created some. How long gone baseball hat is something some would consider art, actually. It's some being me and Jason only. But thank you for joining us. Honestly, it was a pleasure. Tell people about the book, where they can find it, where they can find you on the internet, et cetera. Oh, yeah. So the book, the title, which I never said, is The Longing for Less, Living with Minimalism. And it was published by Bloomsbury in late January. And I think you can still find it at any bookstore that's open, hopefully. And my Twitter is at Chaka K.

And my Instagram, confusingly, is at Kay Chaka. I feel like Instagram is more fun lately. All right. Well, I will smash that follow, Kyle. Thank you, Kyle. Everybody go cop the book. Everybody go read Kyle on all his prestigious outlets that he contributes to. Kyle, I'm sorry. I'm praying for you in Washington, D.C. That's going to be hard. Hopefully make it back to a major city soon. Luckily, they have Sweetgreen there, though. Thank God they got SG. They got a lot of SG there. It's all bullshit. Thank you. Thank you for joining us, and we'll talk to you later. Thank you so much for having me. All right, peace. Later, guys. Yeah.