805. - James Frey

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. How long gone? Super Sunday. I am in Charleston, South Carolina at my friend Brooks' house. It's beautiful. It's humid. I am in the kind of family room area with the Samsung frame on the wall, so I'm feeling quite comfortable. It's got the yellow USM really popping. Could you describe the wallpaper behind you? It looks like all the chef listeners who have a tattoo of sorrel or fennel on their forearm. It's from that store in Stockholm that I can't say the name of. Sfex 10, basically, is what it's called. They're really famous for wallpaper. They have a lot of it here, but also they do the thing. I don't know if they're credited with starting this, but wrapping sort of a guide pole down steps in leather, so it's much more pleasant. They do that, but it's one of the greatest home stores in the world, but that is the wallpaper. I would love a leather banister. It's one of those things that you're like... Do I need that? And you're like, yeah, I think I do. Do I need Jimmy Choo purple micro suede banister? Yeah, I do. That's exactly what I need, as long as it's purple. Okay, so it's hot and humid down there in the Carolinas. You going to go water skiing after this? Yeah, I'm hitting. Got a crab cake? What's going on? We're going low country mode. No, we're going to the beach later. So we're doing a change of location. But I got my.

I was able to go to Vern's, which is the restaurant I really like here, and then see some drunk college students, and you head on out. It's not much more good. I had a lot of vegetables. I've been to this restaurant a handful of times, and I feel like it was kind of meat-heavy, but because it's summer, what is available was... much more my speed half the things on the menu involve peas i'm assuming you already know there's beans out the ass we got peas we got carrots i mean i you know there's strawberries in the dessert it's everywhere i just want to make sure that i know you're on holiday right now and we're probably not doing all of your super sets that hunter has prescribed you're probably not hitting deadlift prs today well that but i do want to well that's where you're wrong i don't mean to i don't mean to i don't mean to and trust me i would love to be wrong I would love to be wrong, but I just want to make sure that we're getting enough team, you know, because those those. Lima beans are good, and the purple carrots are good. Of course, of course. Yeah, of course. Your simple requires a little more fuel than the average bear. No, and you're right. And sometimes the menu doesn't allow for that, and that's upsetting for me and all of the Instagram trainers I follow that tell you need 500 grams of protein before noon. Just have a couple of chomp sticks in your back pocket in case you get a little lightheaded is all I'm saying. There's a gym here that I love called Ethos that's like... maybe the best independent gym I've ever been to, but it's, I'll tell you what, nobody's skipping their protein. It's, it's, it's Soho Equinox levels of hotties, but just like Southern versions, which is a very funny thing for me to witness. What's, what's their water bottle vessel down there at Ethos? Oh, Stan, Stanley with the straw. You already know. Stanley with the, but no la boo boo. No, no dangler. No, no danglers actually, which is surprising because you, this feels like a dangler. It's just mostly people whose last name is Dangler. That's just Kitty Dangler. Is Dangler a fishing term or is that your last name? I don't know what that means totally. It's both. What's going on with you? I'm a little hungover just in terms of going out and doing events the last few days. I DJed a party for a watch company on Thursday. Urban Jorgensen.

It's a relaunch of an old watch brand of Nordic descent in some way. Swedish, right? Or is it from somewhere else? I would say probably Swedish, but I'm not 100% sure. But they rented out the Barker Hangar in Santa Monica where they famously did the Barney's Warehouse sales back in the day where a young Jason really became a man where I was able to afford. high-level luxury on a graffiti artist's budget. Finally, I could get a Barney's branded button-up shirt for $50. No, no, no, no. I was getting real shit, bro. I have my little helmet-laying jeans. I have my little this, little that. Some pieces were procured, but... Not pieces. Just some archival stuff. But, I mean, it was the joy of going in and being like, oh, here are designer jeans that I cannot afford. for like $70. This is amazing. And you don't have to shoplift them either. And then you look to the other half of the airplane hangar and it's just hundreds of the most beautiful women you've ever seen ripping their clothes off in an open hangar. That's a beautiful sight. Sample sales get women acting crazy. There's no time for fitting rooms. There's no time for fitting rooms. And also I think that it could lead a normally passive woman to fight. You know, to throw hands, to scratch, to claw. A garment being ripped between two professional women. An agent provocateur twin set being ripped in half because we couldn't find a solution to this. Calm down, calm down. I'm getting a little too excited. But it was a crazy, it was probably like the nicest, most impressive build-out I've ever been to. And it was like... It was eclipsing Oscars, Grammys, Emmys, events that we've been to. The top of the top stuff, this was more than that. They built an entire Stanley Kubrick movie set dining area that could have been in Mission Impossible or any of these crazy movies. How long was your set? 45 minutes.

Love that. They built a custom stage with a DJ booth, and they asked, because I always have in my technical rider, like, oh, can the DJ come and be set up? Hey, Chief, don't act like I haven't seen your technical rider before, okay? I've memorized it. I know that you have the PDF saved on your phone, as well as in my Dropbox, so you can send it to all the clients just easily. You don't have to bug me about it. But for our listeners, in the technical rider, here's the CDJs. I like my monitor on the left. side not the right you know the little things but i'm very tall so please have the equipment set up on a tall table and if not then you know on top of their flight cases give me a little booster yeah and they and they came back and said how tall do you want it to be and i was like oh you know i'm six nine so you know but and they're like no we're building you a custom like we could just do it like tell me how many inches you want it to be and for the first time in my entire life I'm over here and I'm on my kitchen counter and I have my tape measure. I'm like, so that's one. Okay. I mean, I was able to email them a specific inch and they built it perfectly for me. I felt like a damn princess. They didn't give me a watch, but. They cost several hundred thousands of dollars. Thank God you have a tape measure. That would throw me off. I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Can I eyeball it? Or is this kind of an exact thing? We're going to get you it. If Tekla makes one, hopefully, I don't know, then you might add it to your collection. But after that, I went to the interview magazine party. Friend of the show, Mel Ottenberg, threw at the Eagle in Los Angeles. LA's gayest leather kind of bar and grill, we'll call it, right by the Erewhon Silver Lake. The food's really good, actually. I'm glad that you're kind of shining a light on that. Their fermentation program right now is stunning. I saw a lot of coverage of this party, and Mariah Carey was wheeled out.

I'm wondering, did Mariah Carey do or say anything, or did she simply stand there and that's enough? Unfortunately, because of my previous engagements with the Urban Jarkinsen Company, I missed the emancipation of Mimi, but from what I gathered from the local onlookers, she has a new song that just came out or whatever, so it was like a little bop-in press thing. When you said they wheeled her out, that was an accurate description. I don't think that she had the in-ear at Soundcheck all afternoon tweaking the low, mid, high frequencies. She came out, the DJ hit play on the CDJ, and she stood there with a microphone in her hand that didn't need to be turned on or off. Weekend at Bernadette's is what I'm going to call it, is what we're going to call this. But also, everyone, alternatively, they were like, she looked flawless. Yes. She may have had some work done. Yes. Most of her body is not organic material, but, but everyone was like, She looked as good as Mariah Carey in 2025 could possibly look. That's all that matters. That's all that matters. As long as she looks good and she can do the Christmas song when Christmas comes around, then we're good. Mariah Carey is set for life. Her song that came out yesterday, it does not need to be good or bad. It doesn't matter. It's just there. It's fine. Who cares? It doesn't matter. It just gives her a reason to show up, which is all we need from her, really. But ran into a lot of every gay guy that has been on How Long Gone, who lives in L.A., was at this. event and everyone was like oh look who's here at the eagle because for who don't know everyone that works there half the people that attend there are wearing nothing but a jock strap and you know like an arm leather harness maybe when you have like the the divorce mom iphone armband they use that exercise but they use that to keep their

They're baggy and they're ID and a piece of gum or something. That's their arm purse. It also gets blood to the bicep, which is nice. Kind of like how the Ultimate Warrior would tie little ribbons around the biceps, get a little pump going. It's fine. So I went from DJing this kind of black tie cocktail event. So I showed up to the eagle in a full suit. Okay, so you're taking over my cop outfit in this situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How did it feel? It was a fish out of water situation. Well, I'm glad you didn't. Great party. Had a beautiful time. It was amazing. I'm glad you left your badge in the car because they will. Don't worry, fellas. I'm off duty tonight. Not like that. Not like that. Chill, chill, chill, chill. Mariah's on stage right now. Don't disrespect the queen. All right. Happy birthday to Umberto. from opening ceremony, went to his birthday party last night. Another reason why I'm mildly hung over and shout out to all my cat's eye members who are up in the building. Great to link and build with them. Once again, I'm sure they're super fun to talk to. Um, we have, uh, we, we, we, Howlonggone.com is the website. We have several shows coming up. Get your tickets now. It's very easy to understand how to do that. When you're on our website, you click on the link and you put in your credit card. It's very simple. You do it all the time with Jeff Bezos. We're building out some great guests and some great fun things to talk about on tour. It will be a little bit of a different show. We're excited to give it to you. It's going to be great. We look forward to seeing all of y'all. around the world all y'all all y'all um but we do have a guest today um and it's uh james fry the writer um who you may have been familiar with from a million little pieces his book that came out in 2006 and caused a real uproar because oprah said it was the best and then found out some of it wasn't true and then got mad at him and it was this whole thing but he's written several books and he has a new one called closer to heaven that comes out on the 17th

We got him today. There's a big New York Times story in the style set. The cover of the style section came out today right before we talked to him. And like a real one, he hasn't read it. So you can before you listen to this if you want. But, you know, following his footsteps. Yeah, it was the first time I was like, wow, I read something that our guests didn't. I feel I've never the first time for everything. It was the first time for everything. But we already did speak with him. And I will say it was one of my favorite convos we've had on the pod in a while. He's a really, really interesting guy, and it was an honor to talk to him. No, it's fascinating. I mean, truly being, like, canceled before that was a thing and before the Internet really. dominated our lives is such a rare air to occupy i just don't know i can't think of anyone else really he was canceled before cancellations happened he was an auto fiction writer before auto fiction was a coined phrase i think there's a few firsts that we discuss with him totally um by no design of his own just the way that his twisted mind seemed to shake things out in his life but yeah really interesting guy and like i said an honor to talk to him that's cool all right thank you jason we'll see you next week later this episode of how long gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the guardian stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone.

It was brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together, a cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, how it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture. repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a Tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world, is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So... When life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code HOWLONG. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code HOWLONG with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated.

but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. All right, James, so you're staying caffeinated, but you're saying there's a new drink at Dunkin' Donuts that you want to put us on to? Well, this is called the Dunk-A-Latte. And it's some kind of like sweet, sugary, delicious coffee drink. And I probably go to my local Dunkin' Donuts like, Every other day, and I get the biggest Dunk-O-Latte that you can get. If you can see, there's almost no ice in this. There's almost no coffee in it either, though, James. You know what, man? It tastes delicious, and that's all I give a shit about. But the sugar, I think the sugar can mimic caffeine at a certain point. That's fine, too, man. Do not give a shit what's in the Dunk-O-Latte because it brings me great pleasure and great joy. And I got to say, for a man who drinks that much Dunk-O-Latte, seemingly thousands of liquid calories you look amazing thank you well done well there's a there's a reasonable chance i have really weird eating habits because for a good many years i was super poor and i worked in a bar where they would give me a free dinner every night at 7 30 and my shift as the doorman it was a bar in chicago was from eight to four the bars stay open till four in the morning yeah

So I trained myself when I was like 23, 24 to not eat ever until 730 at night. OK, so we're waiting till the free meal hits at work. OK, so you you were writing auto fiction before auto fiction and you were intermittent fasting before intermittent fasting. Honestly, man, not by any great design. Like I didn't have any money to buy food in my my job. The Lodge on Diversity Avenue in Chicago gave me a free dinner. Okay, so no breakfast, no lunch, eat a big meal at 740, work at a bouncer at a Chicago bar until 4 in the morning, go to sleep, wake up, do it all over again. Yeah. Sick. That was my life at 23 and 24. Being a door guy in Chicago, I feel like that's maybe second worst to Boston. I feel like people get rowdy. People get rowdy. At the bars in Chicago, they have a really specific system for doormen. There's always two of them. There's one smart guy and there's one mean guy. Right? And so I'm 5'11 and probably weigh 175. Smart guy. I would always be the smart guy. And it was my job to try to stop the fights or the incidents before they actually occurred. If I could not do that, I would simply step aside and big guy would come in and take care of things. You were drinking then, right? I was not. I was sober. Oh, you were already done. Yeah, I was done. That's an interesting position to put yourself in. I kind of did it deliberately, man. It sounds crazy, but I wanted the test. I wanted baptism by fire. I didn't want to spend my life hiding from alcohol. All my friends were drinkers. A lot of them were drug users. I'm going to adjust myself to the world instead of trying to make the world adjust to me. Right. I mean, I think it's a better approach and has more kind of longstanding benefits to kind of move through the world. I thought so. Like, I'm still sober 32 years later, so it didn't bug me up. But as long as the fire in this trial doesn't kill you.

It's awesome. It may at some point, but it hasn't yet. Sure, sure, sure, sure. There have been all kinds of fires. I'm walking through them all the time. I didn't realize you've been sober for that long. That's an eternity. Yeah, it's been a long time. You got out of your system early. I was fucked up young, man. The world was a little different. I think people got fucked up differently and in more sort of insane ways in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, I got it young. In a lot of ways, I was lucky. I was super lucky to get sober young. What age did it start? I was actually just talking about this with my wife yesterday. We were talking to a friend who's 45 and got sober in their teens. There's always a good story when that happens. It usually involves drinking at 12. My earliest memories of drinking are when I would go to Cleveland Browns football games with my father as a pretty young kid. I mean, when in Rome, what choice do you have, I think? Yeah, man. But I remember I would always see adults drink, and when they drink, they would be happier, right? So there was some part of me like, well, I want that thing that they're having. And I remember at Browns games, I would always be like, can I have a severe beer, Dad? Can I have a severe beer, Dad? I don't know how old I was, eight, nine, 10. And my dad would give me a sip of the beer. And that wasn't uncommon back then in 1978. And I remember I did feel it and it did make me feel better. And I probably really, I remember I smoked my first cigarette at like 10 or 11. My buddy Clay Remington, he stole a pack of his mom's Virginia Slim's menthol. But I was drinking like drinking or using drugs at least once a week by probably 13. Which, again, wasn't incredibly uncommon back then. There were plenty of other kids that would fuck it up with me. Sure, sure, sure. Well, I like that it's old school and it's drinking and you're not huffing glue. You're not spraying. Oh, we did all that. Oh, you did? Okay. We used to walk around school with bottles of poppers in our pockets, right? We used to get high before school. I mean, the drugs, now everybody just takes pills. Back then it was, let's smoke cocaine.

Let's smoke meth. Let's take acid and smoke meth. Very different than smoking a joint or taking a pill and watching TV and eating a bag of Doritos. I do think there is something there about it was a little more of like a social... bonding thing among friends at when you're younger and now it's like yeah you take an edible and sit at home alone and watch netflix yeah also the phone the phone is the greatest the most powerful drug in the world now right it's the great pacifier before the phone kids had to go out and meet up and find fun and raise hell And now they just sit home and send each other TikTok videos, right? Well, there is a little bit of hope for the future of youth because some kids in my neighborhood, and maybe yours as well, have discovered the $10,000 electric bicycle that they can sort of terrorize the neighborhoods with. Complain enough for their parents to buy them one. Yeah, no, we have a lot of those. As long as they don't have to pedal or exert any force themselves, they're able to look at their phone while driving [redacted address]. Yeah. All is well. I didn't know that had blown up with kids. When you live in New York, you think of that only as a delivery driver method. Out here in New Canaan, if you drive through the town. You will see streets filled with Mercedes, Range Rovers, BMWs, and Porsches, and teenage boys on scooters going fast. And they're ready to die. And also anywhere in L.A. Manhattan, you need the open streets to really get it going. Yeah, it's like the Honda minibike of today. Remember those little Honda 50s? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those did seem sort of dangerous and safe because they only went so fast. Yeah. You know, Honda just started, or they just started making them again. Retro version. Did they increase the price to reflect the collectability? They made them a little faster. They're not cheap. They're like six grand for a little funny thing, right? I just, I don't, I'm just not a gearhead like that. Like, I don't need to, I need one, I need a car to drive from to and from places. I don't need any other.

motorized things in my life yeah i love driving cars fast i drive cars fast like a motherfucker all the time me too me too i love what kind of car do you have do you have a fast car he's a porsche guy i do i've had all kinds of fast cars over my life i currently have uh one two fast cars yeah i have two fast cars right now i have a 1989.5 Porsche 964 C4 that has been heavily modified to go very, very fast. And I have a Mercedes GLA 45 AMG, which is a little hot rod hatchback. Yeah. Okay. You know, we were talking before we got on about process, right? Yeah. The reason I love driving cars so fast is because when I write, I fall into this, I call it a fever dream, where I have absolute, like, almost hyper-focus, right? I can sit in front of a computer for 10 or 12 or 14 hours with absolute focus. And it's this remarkable feeling, right? People talk about flow, right? And I've been meditating for 30 years and practicing Taoism. And in Taoism, we call it Wu Wei Wu. thinking not thinking and and the the easy analogy is when a professional athlete is a very very good one is is is performing their their sport they don't think about what they're doing they have practiced it so much and they have done it so much that they just fall into a state where they can think without thinking right and when i write i enter a state like that and and it's the most glorious thing in life that i've known not the most but certainly one of them yeah your kids might be listening so let's be careful i love my children they know that um but when you have to drive a car very very fast on a public road and when i say very fast i'm talking you know very fast um it requires that same hyper focus it requires that same absolute

fever dream of a state of if you make a mistake in a car at 150 miles an hour, you die. And that's the sort of hyper-focused state I enter into when I write precision, control, flow, right? And so that's why I drive cars fast, just chasing that state of absolute presence. You have to be absolutely present. And when I write, I feel that, too. It's the only two places in my life where I play hockey, too. So sometimes there, but I'm not a great player. I was going to ask if there was a secret third thing, but two is a lot. I play hockey. I started playing hockey when I was 42, when I moved to Connecticut. I joined this league that's a pretty hardcore league. There are a bunch of NHL players and stuff, former ones and former college guys. And so the only thing I figured... when I started playing hockey was learning. You can fight. You're a great fighter. Been in thousands of fights. So just go on the fucking rink and be the nastiest enforcer they've ever seen. So in the Connecticut... You're the Connecticut goon. Yeah, you're... Kinda, yeah. I mean, Connecticut needs more goons, if you ask me. Okay, so when... Sorry, when you're able to reach this... flow state where you could write 10, 12, 14 hours a day, how difficult is it to really lock into that? Are you able to do it easily now? I feel like if Chris was able to write 14 hours a day, this book would be done in a weekend. Yeah, I'm taking notes. I'm taking notes. I can't do it easily. What do you need to get there? Are there certain things you need on your desk and liquids and Nicorette? Do you need all the supplies? So when I write a book, the way I write, which is pretty odd, is at some point I will always have at any given time as I walk around three or four books in my head that will sort of occasionally talk to me. I write books because I have difficulty managing and processing my own emotions, right? My own pain, my own feelings.

And they build up. And at a certain point, I have a choice. Write a book or hurt myself. Write a book or do something I shouldn't do. And so as I start to feel that, I start letting those books that talk to me come forward a little bit. And one of them will always sort of assert itself. And then I usually, it sounds ridiculous, I talk to my therapist. And I've had the same therapist for 20-some years. And we have a whole process that I go through as I get ready to write a book. And we sort of approach it like a fighter approaches a fight, right? I start meditating more. I start bringing my focus in. I stop taking an antidepressant to let all those feelings come up more. Wow. You stop jacking off? Absolutely not. We can remove the chi. That's fine. I don't believe in that one. Thank God. And there will come a day where I just feel like I'm ready to rock. I don't use outlines. I don't read what I write. I've never read a book I've written. Every book I've written except for A Million Little Pieces was the first draft. And I lock in. And I turn up music real loud. Music with lyrics? Music with lyrics? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you got Led Zeppelin blasting on the hi-fi and you're just cranking this shit out. Yes. That's kind of the Stephen King method, right? Well, I use music in very specific ways. So it's not always Zeppelin. What I do to music is, so I've already sort of heightened my feelings, right? I've allowed those things that sort of control my emotions. to be taken away so that i'm at full maximum emotional yeah and uh i turn on music and i use the music to manipulate myself into further emotional states so that when i'm writing about rage i listen to rage-filled music when i'm writing about sadness i listen to sad music when i'm writing about love i listen to music about love and these things make me feel what i want to write about and i always say i have to feel what i'm

writing about when I write it. And writing is a very physical process for me. I dance. I rock. I hug myself. Sometimes I get teary. I let the floodgates out and I turn up the music, whatever it is. And I say I bear my fucking soul. I let it fucking rip. No filter, no nothing. When I write, I try to be absolutely as precise as possible. It's always what's the next word? What's the next best word? Next best word? Next best word? Next best word? And it's never about rules. It's never about anything. But what is the next best word? What word will make me feel what I want a reader to feel? And I know if I can feel it in the moment while I'm writing it, there's a high possibility. that a reader will feel it when they read it. And so this fever dream state that I get in, I'm rocking, I'm dancing, I'm getting upset, I'm writing, I type with two fingers. I'm really getting a visual here. You're doing a great job of explaining it. It seems like something so simple, like, oh, me write sad chapter, put on sad music, but I don't think I've ever really heard anyone explain it that way, and it is quite logical. So when the rage is happening, is it a Pantera? Where are we going musically? For rage, it could be Black Sabbath, early, early Black Sabbath. It could be Sex Pistols. It could be The Clash. It could be Ronnie James Dio. It could be ACDC with Bon Scott. It could be a host of Zeppelin or Guns N' Roses, Black Flag, all the punk from the 80s. Music that makes me want to fight. Music I listen to before I go play a fucking hockey game. I could see you sitting in the car right now on the Porsche just blasting ACDC before you hit the rink, getting in the zone. You know what song I listen to before I go to the rink? It's so cheesy. It's embarrassing listening to it. I listen to two tunes. The rink's like seven minutes from my house, so I listen to two tunes when I go over it. I first listen to Eye of the Tiger by Survivor. A little on the nose. Okay. Okay. And then I listen to Here I Go Again by Whitesnake.

whoa yeah that is a that's a yeah that's a real when white snake goes the rpms might kick in a little higher on that second course i'm assuming yeah yeah or i might get a real stern look on my face and think about who i'm gonna play and be like i'm gonna fuck that motherfucker up but um yeah i love my hockey all three of them are like finding the state of having to be present right disappearing from active thought and entering into a state of of of thoughtless action yeah it's just muscle like subconscious muscle mind memory it's just happening through you but as somebody who got sober at such a young age are you envious of people who are able to you you know a little micro dose of mushrooms go to the desert and have it all just automatically flow through you through your spirit animal are you envious of that versus having to You know, go through these trials yourself. No, man. I love what I do. I love writing. I love the process of it. I've taken so many drugs in my life. I don't need any more. Somebody asked me recently if I wanted to do DMT and ayahuasca. And I was like, no fucking way. And they were like, why? And I was like, dude, I'm a battle scarred, worn out old man. Like, I don't need that madness anymore. I'm really happy. Like, I live in the woods next to a river. I'm far happier going and sitting next to my river and meditating for an hour than like putting on a bikini and taking some drug in the desert. I mean, having spoken to you for 19 minutes, I feel like ayahuasca comes and talks to you for advice versus the other way around. It's a rare reversal of roles. Rare reversal of roles. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded.

Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash how long for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code how long to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston, South Carolina. Virginia Beach, Virginia Wheeling, West Virginia and Columbus, Ohio plus there are even more dates some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here so please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates we'll see you on the road this summer study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC and for a limited time college students get the best of both worlds Get the Unreal College deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. Speaking of Connecticut.

I wanted to know a little bit of what's in the water over there right now after the theme of your new book. Were you upset when the Jon Hamm Apple TV show arrived a couple months ago involving the dark underbelly of Connecticut high society? Or were you like, all right, this is good? I actually know the guy who wrote it, Jonathan Tropper. He's a really, really old friend of mine. He's a lovely dude. He's like, I have nothing but... delightful, kind, wonderful things to say about him. And to be very honest, like I'm thrilled for his success. He's a friend. I want him to do great. I'm thrilled for him. I'm happy for him. The show's really good. This is a big, this is a big moment for Connecticut though. There's a lot of that. That's the, you know, what, why now? I guess is, is maybe the question. I think that I think because we, we have seen over the last like seven to 10 years, um, an accumulation of wealth. by a small group of citizens that is unlike anything we've ever seen, right? The accumulation of wealth in the last decade is just astounding. And we have, you know, created an oligarchy in the United States. We talk about like being this free country, this place where everybody's equal, but the reality is that's horseshit. There are the uber rich and then there's everyone else. And everyone else is also determined by class, right? How you exist in the world is entirely determined by class. And I will say, like, these little bubbles have existed for a long time. These bubbles of insane wealth. But I think as the country gets and the world gets more dangerous and more unstable, people think, well, what are the rich people? What are they like? What's their life like compared to mine? What are these little bubbles that they live in? I've lived in one for a long time. Well, are you, and I know you've done quite well, but are you like the brokest guy in your neighborhood kind of vibe? For sure. Yeah. Yes. Like, I'm not broke, and I'm the brokest motherfucker around. Which, I mean, everyone says that's where you want to be, right? Yeah. The shittiest house on the nicest block. So you go 150 past Paul Simon's house and flip him off. I'm sure your neighborhood is filled with fellow luminaries like yourself.

I don't want you to dox yourself. I mean, there's a lot of people you would know who live around here. It's a small town. It's 18,000, 19,000 people. From 1880 to 2015, it was the wealthiest town in the United States. It's now the second or third. And it's this incredible, insane little bubble with the best school system in the country, the best sports programs in the country. the safest place in the country, the largest park system in the country. It is a different world here. And, you know, the way the book came about was during the pandemic, somebody asked me to read Hollywood Wives by Jackie Collins because they were thinking about turning it into a television show. And I read it and I fucking loved it. It was great. If you've never read it, check it out, man. It's funny and dirty and dramatic. I'm at the beach. This sounds appropriate. Yeah, it is appropriate, man. And I read it and I was like, this is fucking great. And the people who want to make the television show want to make a very tame version of it. So I declined to participate. But I started thinking, like, I read another Jackie Collins book. I read a couple of Daniel Steele books. And I was like, what would one of these books look like if it were written by me? What would one of these books look like if it was written by a motherfucker who has lived among the richest people in the world for a long time and sat silently observing, watching, sometimes participating, but often just quietly sitting in the corner, right? Oh, so you're a watcher in the orgies. That's good to know. I was wondering. Not the orgies, just in the culture. Oh, I'm sorry. I got confused. Okay, I got confused. Okay, I know you did not use AI to write this novel whatsoever, but it seems like a fun thing to be like, what would happen if me, James Fry, wrote a book in this, you know, got my Jackie Collins on or whatever it is, just to crap it out and see what would happen. Did you at least do that? No, I have tested a lot with AI. There's some dumb controversy about me and AI right now. What is the controversy? Too many M dashes. That's how they get you every time. I don't use M dashes. I've always sort of been, I believe, on the front edge of what is possible with words and technology. My old company, 4,005, we were the first person.

company to release a book with the audio soundtrack synchronized to it we were the first people to release a book that we did with the video game company where you had to read the book to play the game you had to play the game to understand the book and it came out all kinds of like forward thinking things like this so when ai became functional i was very interested in it i'm i'm always interested in things that can make me better at my job and make my job faster and so i fucked around for probably four months with a full book where ai wrote some of it i wrote some of it i was fucking around with it the book ultimately ended up being a piece of shit um and so i threw it away do you feel like it was but do you feel like you got it to a point where at least the the ai portion voice was correct or did it never feel right to you ai doesn't have humanity yet right it can it can get you part of the way there but it can't remember when i earlier i was talking about emotions it can't do that it doesn't understand that and that's all i really do i tell stories but really my stories are all about like sending you on this crazy emotional ride where if i'm successful i make you feel whatever it is deeply love lust pain loss sorrow fear And so in a lot of ways, AI works very precisely against what I am always trying to do, which is touch a reader's soul, touch a reader's heart. But it is, and that book was a piece of shit, right? It was fun to do. It let me sort of know what is possible. And then after I did it, two years ago, Le Centre Pompidou, the contemporary art museum in Paris, had a literary festival about literature and technology, and I was the keynote speaker talking about AI and writing. And I was real open with it. Like, yeah, I'm testing it. I'm writing a book with it. I want to see what it can do. If it's a tool that can make me a better writer and provide a reader with a better experience, I'm going to test it. I'm going to fuck around with it. I'm going to see.

And at this point, I use AI. I do use it, and I'm not scared to admit it, but I use it as a highly, highly efficient and advanced version of Google, right? Me too. If you ask Google a question, it will give you 20 results, and you have to go sit through them to find the answer. If you ask AI a question, it just gives you the fucking answer, right? That's what I use it for. And it gives you a great answer, and it gives you an answer that it thinks you will like. based on your brain, you can keep pinching and zooming that info, and there's no bullshit, there's no pop-up ads, there's no 19 million search cues. And next to heaven, I'm writing about rich people. I know a lot about rich people, I know a lot about the shit rich people like, but a simple example is there's scotch comes into play during the book, right? I know nothing about scotch. When I was a fucking drinker, I drank Wild Irish Rose and Mad Dog and Colt 45. So I know nothing about the most expensive scotches in the world. I've never attempted to learn anything. But I can go to AI and say, what's the most expensive bottle of scotch in the world? And it tells me. Boom. Right? Makes it a lot easier to do things. No, that's a good example. That's a good example. Do you think that as you've written so many books, lived so many years, your intellectual gamesmanship has increased over the years, or are you still purely writing from the heart without really the desire to sound or look clever? I don't ever give a shit about sounding and looking clever, man. Right? It hasn't changed at all since the beginning of your writing journey? No. I mean, I think how I work has changed a lot. You know, I was talking about the process. I used to do some version of that instinctually. Right. And over time with the therapist, we really sort of dug into why do I do these things? What do these things do for me? How can we refine them to make them work the best and most efficiently? So there's a whole process leading up to the book. There's the book. I wrote this book in 57 days. I probably worked 12 to 16 hours a day.

from the day i start writing a book till the day i finish i take no days off it's a straight run and then you know during that period i don't talk to the therapist at all until about a week before i think i'm going to be done and then we start preparing me to finish because the day i finish i fall into a black hole of like suicidal depression Wow. And so there are specific processes I follow, right? And these things have been refined over time and through books. But the goal is still the same, which is to overwhelm a reader with story and unconventional application of words and grammar to make you feel things really deeply, to thrill you, to scare you, to turn you on, to make you feel hate. It'll make you feel rage. It's to provide a reader with an experience unlike anything they've ever had. I try to do that with every book. So when people are like, what do you want from a reader? I want somebody to pick up next to heaven and start reading it and to not be able to stop until it's over. And when it's over, to laugh and say, I can't believe he did that. I can't believe this exists. And I'm so happy that he did. And it does. And that's it. The son of a bitch has done it again. That motherfucker has never gone away. Fuck that dude. I mean, what, so what have you, so what have you been doing in the last, you know, whatever, since 2006, seven, eight, have you been just writing? I mean, you had the company, I know. You know, what have you been doing? So my first three books, A Million Little Pieces, My Friend Leonard, and Bright Shiny Morning were all global number one bestsellers, right? Yeah. My fourth book was a number one. In most countries, it was published outside of the United States. The fourth book was called The Final Testament of the Holy Bible. And we couldn't publish it in the United States because I would have been killed. So I'm the only novelist to ever be published by Gagosian, the art gallery.

as an artist not as a writer or as a novelist they published the final testament of the holy bible as a work of art i took a bunch of years off after that i started full bottom five that company worked we published 250 books over seven years we had 41 new york times bestsellers we had 16 number ones we had a number one film number one television show number one video game globally all of them um I sold that company to a French private equity business who was in the process of forming what became the world's largest influencer network in a company called Webedia 3 Black Dot. And I was the global chief content officer and creative director for that company from 2017 to 2022. So you had like a real job for five years. Yeah. I mean, I was running big. businesses did you want to do that did you want to do that or did you look up one day and you're like shit i guess this is what i do now i mean once you get soft canceled you got to become a creative director yeah we laughed but i did it um after i wrote do you mind if i go walk around a quick minute while we talk no no no do your thing roam freely after i wrote the bible i was on this big book tour in europe where it was published normally and uh I remember I was in a fucking hotel room in the middle of the night somewhere, and I was like, why the fuck are you still doing this, man? You've written four books. You have rocked the fucking world. You have three number ones. Fourth book is published by Gagosian as a work of art. Maybe it's time to walk away. Maybe it's just time to stop. You got nothing left to prove. Whatever there was to prove has been proven. And I was tired of it, man. People don't think about it, but the shit that I dealt with, it takes it out of you. It's not easy to fight Oprah, the New York Times, and every other media motherfucker in the planet and try to survive it when they're trying to destroy you. I mean, you're definitely up for the fight, but it will take its toll.

after a while yeah it will take its toll yeah i would say you're more up for the fight than anyone i've ever met probably based on this conversation so far or just go look what i did i never i never stopped people are like what have you been doing and what i say is pumping out number ones they'll do it that's what i do Well, how did you feel then? Because this New York Times story came out today, and I assume that's the first time you've talked to them in a while. It was the first time I've talked to them since a brief conversation. Well, I can't really talk about all of the conversations I've had with them, but it was the first time I've had a significant interview with them, maybe ever. Really? Oh, so they didn't do one in the heyday? No, they wrote a lot about me. They came after me hard, but I never gave them an interview. I would usually... give them the finger or tell the reporter ed wyatt suck my dick ed yeah he's a chump man i mean i just tell him to fuck off and hang up on him so why did you feel ready to do it now i mean obviously you have a book coming out and there's reason to do it but why did you personally feel ready because i did all that other stuff right and i'm ready to do this again um and because i want to do it for real right i still see literature dying I see serious reading dying. And I see nobody doing anything to try to stop it, right? And it's not like I'm some grand fucking crusader, but I love books. I love reading. I love writing. I think it's important. And it's becoming classical music, right? This very small thing that is loved by a small amount of people. I want it to live, and I think writers today are mostly cowards. They write books for awards and professionalships. They don't write books to make great art. They don't write books to rock the world. They don't write books to keep literature alive. They write books for a hug and for an award. Yeah, your quote in the Times piece, everybody wants a hug and a Pulitzer, and I don't need either one.

And I've noticed that we interview a lot of authors, and it seems like the whole point of the whole everything is to go on a fun book tour, try out some new restaurants in Portland and Seattle, and then eventually, hopefully, Hulu buys it for a series and we start all over again. And that's kind of the extent of it. Yeah. Not for me, man. I want to burn the fucking world down. I want to light it up. I want to force people to read things and think. and feel, and change, and talk, and believe that literature can still be great, that literature can still be transformative, that words still have power, that stories still have power. And there are very few motherfuckers left in the world who are ready to bring it, right? Like I said, everybody wants to be safe and comfortable and beloved. I'm none of those. I've said as soon as I stop being dangerous, I stop. But the point for me of art and literature isn't hugs. It's to make things that matter. Make things that force people to look at the world they live in and deal with it. Make people look in the fucking mirror and think about what they see. Okay, now that's where I draw the line because I don't love doing that. I don't love doing it either, man, but I do it every day. And I always say, all I ever do in any book I write is I hold up a mirror to our society and I force you to look at it. And you probably aren't going to like what you fucking see. And that's not my fucking problem. That's my job. Okay, well, if the world of books and book reading... has sort of shrunken down. Classical music, I feel like, is a great analogy for it. Do you feel like you writing about a very specific subject, how rich people live in a wealthy suburb in Connecticut? We don't call it a suburb. We call it a country. Okay. A conclave, perhaps. But if you want to hold up a mirror to society, do you feel like the next book?

maybe we'll go into the opposite, something a little more accessible to the every man, you know, versus, you know, I want to see how the ultra wealthy live because it's fun and I don't have to think about my Walmart life, you know? I don't know, man. I don't know what the next book will be. I've thought about it. I've got a couple options. And like I said, something will step forward. I want you to go poor. You want me to go poor? I'm probably not going for, I know, I know what I'm like. I know what I'm likely doing, which is that, you know, the next book will be called divorce tower. Okay. You ever heard of the divorce towers? No, no. But I feel like it's a apartment or condo buildings where divorced dads go to live when they get kicked out of the house. There are three buildings in, in the United States. One of them is in lower Manhattan. Two of them are in Los Angeles. One in Santa Monica, one in entry city. And they are short-term luxury furnished apartment rentals for people in the middle of high net worth divorces. So the building in New York is in Tribeca. Okay. It has 12 apartments. It is seven floors. There are two apartments on five floors and then two penthouses, right? Literally, the only people who are allowed to live there are people in the middle of high network divorces. And so these buildings are fucking madness, right? Imagine rich people in the middle of both the worst time of their life and the most liberating time in their life with all the money in the world and the meanest lawyers in the world at their disposal. i might do that that's that's i'm in on that a lot of a lot of weeping a lot of sex workers coming in and out at all hours of the day prescription deliveries it's all there you know it what do you think the average what are we talking about rental price here like what are we looking at i mean for one of the penthouses like six figures a month okay

Yeah, that's not a game. No, it's not a game. Yeah, I think I know the Century City ones you're talking about. I think there's been some high-level people staying there over the years. Yeah. But I think that's a great idea. Hopefully nobody steals it. I was writing a book before this that my agent recommended I put aside that I might go back to. Why do you think your agent recommended that you put it aside? He was worried it would get me shot. Okay. Does this have more to do with religion? No, it's called 476, all spelled out as one long word, capital F-O-U-R, capital S-E-V-E-N-T-Y, capital S-I-X, even though it's just one long word. And 476 was the year Rome fell for good. And I have about half this book written, and I started writing it four or five years ago. It's about what I call the ongoing collapse of the United States. And he recommended that I put it aside for a while because it sort of attacked both sides. It didn't say the left is bad and the right is great. It didn't say the right is bad and the left is great. It said you're all fucking full of shit and you're all the same. You're just telling a different fucking story. Corrupt as fuck. I feel like that line of thinking, though, is maybe more popular now than it ever has been. Yeah, Jake Tupper's doing it right now a lot. Maybe, but... I might do that. I don't know what I'll do, man. The beauty of what I get to do, the privilege, which I do call a privilege, and the gift that the people who read my books have given me is that I have a certain amount of freedom to do whatever I want. I'll get through this release. I'll get through the tour. When does the book come out? When does the book come out, the new one? June 17th. Okay, so next week, basically. Yeah, next week. And we'll see. I want to have fun. I hope readers love the book. It was probably the most fun I ever had writing a book. I howled with laughter and giggled and listened to a lot of 80s music. And then we'll see, man. We'll see. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Are your kids all out of the house? No, my children live with me. All three?

I have one who is a sophomore in college and then two that are in high school and they live with me half the time. Okay. Yeah, so 50% of the time I have children and dogs and 50% of the time I just have me. What do the kids think about you? I don't know. Today will be very odd, probably for them and for me. Because they're going to read a New York Times story about their dad. Yeah. And they maybe weren't really. cognizant at the first the first time i mean only one of them was born when yeah none of them were born when a million little pieces came out none of them were born when my friend leonard came out right none of them had a subscription to the guardian either Did the Guardian say something bad about me, probably? I don't know. It wasn't something bad. I think it was like 2006. There was an article about, you know, shortly after the Oprah situation and everything, just kind of detailing everything. But they didn't say anything bad, actually. There were a lot of the articles back then. It's crazy how long ago it was. Does it feel long ago to you, or does it feel like it was yesterday? No, it feels... several lifetimes ago because i i was really i really followed that closely because i had read the books and read the book and really liked it and then read all the subsequent books and really liked them but i i it was just a different thank you well we talked about a little bit jason and i before this and it's just like it was a different time there was it was like gawker news you know what i mean it wasn't like it wasn't as crazy as things are now which is but it felt like the biggest thing that had ever happened it was astonishing man i mean It was astonishing. It was both a great dream come true and some surreal fucking shit show. But I will say, like I've said this before, people are always like, oh, how'd you get through it? And I'm like, get through what, man? That was a game. I came into this before I started, before A Million Little Pieces came out. I came in saying like,

I want to be the most influential, most controversial, most polarizing, most widely read literary author of my time. That's the only game. Whatever pain I take, whatever beating I take, whatever I have to deal with to get to that, that's it. That's my game. It's all part of the job that you signed up for. It is. In exchange, you get a great, wealthy, healthy, fun life. It's not always great and wealthy and healthy and fun. But I guess the life that I dreamed of for all of its good and for all of its bad, for all of its pain and challenges and for all of its joys and victories. It's what I dreamed of. And so for whatever the difficulties, I remember when A Million Little Pieces was going down and people were like, how are you dealing with this? And I was like. fucking dream come true dream come true trust the process i mean i don't think that yeah i mean i just don't think books make that kind of news anymore no matter what like to your point earlier you know i don't know if i don't know if anything could move the needle like that in in the literary world today maybe not you know i maybe probably not right like phones have taped just simply because of the volume the number of people who read books yeah that's right kids don't read books Yeah, I have three children. One of them reads books and the other two just like don't. But for as long as I'm around and for as long as this world still exists, I'm going to do it. And, you know, next to heaven for me was like, just write a book that will bring you joy to write. Write a book that nobody will expect you to write. Write a book that's not like anything anybody's ever seen. Write a book that will make people laugh and turn them on and scare them. And keep them turning those pages. All these things are my job, right? And we can talk about the highfalutin, where is my place in the literary world? Or we can talk about addiction and my fight with Oprah. But ultimately, all that really matters to me is how does a reader feel when they turn that last page? And do they say to themselves, that was both worth it and extraordinary?

And that's that's what I'm trying to do every time, every word, every sentence, all of it. Provide a reader and provide myself as I write it with the most delightful and specific and unique experience I can do. And I believe if I do that, history will take care of me. And I believe history already is taking care of me. Right. We can talk about the Times piece. I haven't read it. I have seen it. Will you? I don't know. I probably will. I probably won't today or tomorrow. The photos are cool. I did look at the photos. I like the photos. I'm wearing the same outfit, which I wear every fucking day. Sometimes you can tell who's a big dog and who's not because you get the moving lead image instead of just the static image. You know what I mean? So it's a differentiation. And when the time comes to you, not you come to them. That also is a good indicator. But you mentioned... The uniform dressing, and there's a part where in the Times piece where you go to a book reading and it describes the outfit that you're wearing, and it seems to be the same outfit in the photo shoot and the one that you're wearing right now. Do you have like a Steve Jobs style uniform that you do every day? And could we get a fit check just in terms of brands? It seems like you know what you're doing. I don't have like a Steve Jobs thing. I dress like a bum. Every day. This will be kind of awkward. You see these pants that I wear? Yeah, yeah. They're black pants that seem to stop a little short of the ankle. I buy them on Amazon. They are called Shaolin work pants, and they cost $6 a pair. Okay, and do you have other colors, or is it a black-only situation? I have black, navy green, or hunter green, and khaki. Okay.

And then I either wore a white or a black T-shirt every day. Where are the T-shirts from? Walmart, man. Okay. Okay, so you really are dressing like a bum. It's a fucking T-shirt. I can buy a 12-pack at Walmart for $14, or I can go to some store and buy one. literally the same t-shirt for 48 yeah or more i mean that's on the low end yeah 48's like i i personally wear costco t-shirts just because you know with everyone has a different body and every brand has a different kind of cut and feel and thickness and that's what i like so i'm hey i'm haynes xl walmart boom i go to costco a lot i love costco costco is my jam but but i buy my t-shirts there Is Costco really your jam? Man, I was talking about Costco yesterday. Do you know who the nightclub promoter Paul Sevigny is? He owns, like, Paul? Yeah, yeah. He's a super close friend of mine. He lives out here, too, and I hang out with him. And I was talking to him about Costco yesterday, and I gave him my whole personal history with Costco, which is I lived in Venice, California, all through the 90s, from 94 to 02. I lived in Venice. And I remember in about 1997, the Marina Del Rey Costco opened. And I tried to go the opening day, and there were too many people there to even get near it. So I waited a couple more days, and I went a couple days later. Marina Del Rey. I pulled in. I'm a white trash boy from the Midwest. I didn't grow up fancy. I grew up in Cleveland and Michigan and Wisconsin. My family ain't got no fucking titles, right? I love Costco. And so when that Costco opened in Marina Del Rey, you could buy gas there. You could buy tires there. You could buy food. You could buy clothes. You could buy flowers and shit for your yard. You could get your car fucking fixed. Anything. And it was half price everywhere else. And again, I was a poor, struggling, unknown fuck up.

bum wannabe writer. I was like, this shit is my jam. I love Costco. I still go. My Nicorette. I chew immense amounts of Nicorette every day. I don't know if you'll be able to see it, but Costco brand. There we go. Costco's making their own Nicorette. That's smart. They know their customer. They always have. If you buy Nicorette at Walgreens, you can buy a 110-piece pack. For $86. If you go to Costco, you can buy a 380-piece, two-box pack for $42. This is good intel. At those prices, you can't afford not to have a crippling nicotine addiction, right? Exactly. How long does it take you to go through a 380-chub pack of nicotine gum? Not long, man. Four days? Five days? Oh, wow. Not long at all. Okay, so you've got your Dunkin' and you've got your Nicorette. So you've lapped Marc Maron in terms of this specific sober activity. This is the pile that is sitting next to me right now that will be for like today, maybe tomorrow. For those at home, it looks like a brick. You know, it's a large... He just did a cash phone with nicotine gum packets. I will say that is just shy of 100. Probably. So you're probably doing around 90 a day, something like that? Somewhere around there. Probably 50 to 80 a day, depending on the day. Do you ever have a cigarette? I do occasionally. I didn't smoke for 20 years. I quit smoking like six months before my first kid was born. Actually, it was 18 years. And then for her 18th birthday, she studies art history at Barnard. She's super into art. So for her 18th birthday, I took her to Paris. to look at paintings and walk around and show her the Paris that I know, my friend. Let me show you my petly. So while we were there, Melanie Laurent, you know the French movie star? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's an old, super close friend of mine. She actually, we were talking about the Bible earlier. The Bible was a traveling stage show that went all over France, including its final,

performances at l'opera in paris the most famous theater in the world um but melanie produced it and directed it so she's an old friend of mine so i was with my 18 year old daughter um in paris one of the nights we were going to have dinner with melanie laurent at a restaurant that has no sign and no phone number and you have to be a rich or famous french person to go there right sure my daughter and i were sitting um at a cafe before we were going to dinner and she was like dad i have a weird question and i was like yeah and she's like does melanie smoke and i was like yeah she does and she was like will you teach me how to smoke a cigarette so i can have a cigarette with her and i was like fuck yeah fuck yeah I'm going to have cigarettes six months before you were fucking born. Fuck yeah. So you talk about a proud parent moment. This is about as good as it got. Yeah. We went to one of the little newsstands in France. They still have them everywhere. Bought a pack of Marlboro Lights and I taught her to have a cigarette. And then we were at dinner with Melanie. And in between the first and second courses, my daughter was like, hey, Melanie. I want to go outside and have a cigarette. And some part of my insides as a father exploded in radiant joy as me and my daughter walked outside at probably [redacted address] in a small, a small Paris street in the 6th Lundies Mall. And I had my first cigarette in 19 years with my daughter and Melanie Long. And since then, I probably smoke like one a week Marlboro menthols. If you're going to do it, make it count. Yeah. I used to smoke Cool Milds when I was a smoker. And I tried to smoke a Cool Mild and my throat started to melt. So I switched to the lighter Marlboro menthol. I mean, you got to listen to the body. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, James.

Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us. Thank you so much, man. We do appreciate it. I appreciate it. If I can ever help either of you dudes out or you need a writer or a reader or whatever, track me the fuck down. And if you want to come to the launch in New York, I think it's going to be pretty grabby and pretty fun. I'd love to have you guys. Yeah, thank you. No, we appreciate it. I love the book. I devoured it, as you described. So I'm happy people are going to get to read it. Thank you. Thank you so much for reading it and for having me and for the support, man. I really do deeply appreciate it. It matters immensely to me. And let's fucking rock. If you guys ever want to do something with me, track me down and let's fucking rock. We'll track you down. That's a challenge. Thank you. And I'm going to go buy a pair of your Buddhist pants on Amazon and see how these things feel. You want me to find a link for you and I'll send it? I think I'll be able to find it. If not, I'll contact your representation and get the Amazon link from you. I do appreciate it. Shaolin monk pants. The most comfortable thing in the world. Shaolin monk pants. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are going to... You know, they'll be sold out by tomorrow on Amazon. Well, now they probably have 100% tariffs on them, so they'll be $12. They're going up. They're going up. Yeah, they're going up. Like everything else, they're going up. How to do business in an oligarchy. Thanks, James. Have a good one, bro. Have a great day.