842. - Pamela Hanson

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Buongiorno. It's How Long Gone. I am Chris Black. I'm in New York City. It's a beautiful... Beautiful day, about as good as it gets out there. Them jeans is coming to us from an undisclosed location deep in the bowels of Italy. Is that correct? Bowels. In the bowels. Yeah, I'm in the bowels now. I'm hanging out in Modena. We just skipped over here from Milano in the rental car. I'm having espresso and I'm befriending all of the... wealthy retired adults who are staying at this hotel? Well, that's because it's prime work time as far as seasonality goes. You know what I mean? So the only people that can really afford to kind of... kick back at the hotel of retirees and podcasters. So I hope you run into some of our peers there. Well, I think Italy, it's all about seasonality, if you ask me. The figs are coming in beautifully. Oh, I didn't even think about that. Watermelon season is kicking in big time right now. Melon d'agua, as they say, as the locals might say. I prefer when you say rental car, because it just sounds a little more funny. I visited the Sikhs.

Yeah, and I hope you're sitting down. They tried to upsell me to a BMW. No. Instead of the Citroen. Did you do it? Oh, yeah. I got the X Uno. I was going to say, I unfortunately am susceptible to upselling in those situations unless it's truly astronomical. The difference. I'll upsell the car to a BMW. You'll never upsell me on the insurance plan. If you get insurance from a rental car place, you're a fool. That's on you. I would never do that. To quote Joe Budden Podcast, I ain't going to hold you if you were the type of person who would get insurance on your rental car. I do remember back in the day, though, there would be some kind of hardcore kid shenanigans. You would get the full insurance and then just destroy the car. And there's nothing they could do. Obviously, we're not going to do that now, I don't think. With what I'm putting in my body in terms of drugs and alcohol, I do not want to be caught whipping donuts on the piazza or anything like that. I don't want to do international time. Pulling the e-brake in the citron and doing some donuts does sound nice, I have to say. Is this car going to take you to – are you driving this to where I'm meeting you? I'm driving it across the water to Sicily. That's right, Chris. Okay, great. No, no, no. Oh, you're not. Oh, I thought maybe you could take a boat. I thought maybe you could take like a ferry or something. No, I would love to ferry, but no, we're going to fly there from Bologna, I think. And then, yeah, we fly in from Bologna to Sicily to Palermo where I'm going to rent another car. That's where I'll be driving you. Can you just – If you don't mind. You can drive manual, right? If you don't mind upgrading when it's going to be me, I just want to put that out there before Seeks offers you the opportunity. I'll give you the four-door Peugeot. Don't worry, brother. Don't worry. Just give me something I can stretch out. If I'm going to be your designated driver full-time for 48 hours, I need some leg room, and so do you is all I'm saying. Absolutely. My favorite part about Italy is that.

It is like in L.A. or I guess in America, the pedestrians have the right of way. Typically. Yeah. In Italy, no one knows has the right of way. You're saying the car. In Italy, Carolyn and I were talking about it on the road as we were re-navigating the way the systems work. And so she was like, so the far left lane, there's no speed limit there. Is that how it works? And I was like, you would think so. But the speed limit is dictated by whoever. decides to drive the fastest, and that's the person... I was going 164 kilometers per hour, and there was a guy in a Mercedes wagon behind me. He was acting as if I had his mom at gunpoint. He was slamming the roof of his car. He was doing gang symbols at me. He was treating me like I was, you know... in a giant Volkswagen bus from the 60s going [redacted address]. I mean, I was whipping it. I don't know what 164 is in miles per hour. Let me check. I don't either. I don't either. But you're saying this Italian man was frustrated as Italians tend to be. He was ready to kill me. I thought, yeah, I was going 102 miles an hour. And he was like, move out of the way, you slow bastard. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. I like a self-governing highway. It's kind of up to the people. And also, in America, you zoom around. A car's going slow. You whip around them. And here, you honk gang signs, flash the brights, and you expect them to move out of the way. I got to be honest. I got to be honest. I prefer that. I think if you're going slowly and I alert you to that. You get out of my way. I think that's a fair approach. You would like that because it's a power move. It is. I don't love power moves. Don't say that, Jason. Don't put that on me. I love some power moves as well. Obviously, I'm a sub in some situations, and then sometimes I'm a dom on the road. You're a verse sub. I'm going to honk the horn for you to move out of my way.

Just to see if you'll do it. And then I go, you fucking bitch. I prefer a horn, honestly, to the light. The light flash feels passive aggressive. The horn is more direct. And also it's there for that reason. Whereas lights are meant to illuminate your journey at night. And when you're misusing them in a passive-aggressive way, that frustrates me where the horn only has one purpose, and that's get out of my way. And I think that's the easiest way to communicate, I would say. You said it in a more poetic way than I thought. I'm thinking, it sounded like a Coldplay, lights will guide you. The lights are there to illuminate your journey home, brother. I wish I could. I wish I had even a single bone as poetic as Chris Martin's in my dying body. Yeah, but you fucking don't. You fucking don't. I really don't. Oh, well, actually, before I forget, we should make an announcement for the Levitation Festival coming up September 26, 27, 28. On the 26th, the Thursday in Austin. dj python dj them jeans in the club at night on thursday i'm looking forward to it let's go every time i watch a video of python performing live in you know uh fucking croatian jungle or you know fucking he's in tokyo on tuesday dj python is headlining what Once again, in a Chinese city I can't pronounce, so he's doing well. He's in the Zhenghui province playing sublime drum and bass remixes, so I'm like, this motherfucker is so booked and busy, and he's playing the most just nonsensical wild shit ever, and it's a room full of cute Japanese people who are just like, hell yeah, this is so sick. So I'm looking forward to building my crates up. But then on Friday... We'll be doing a live podcast in the festival Friday with a band called The Armed. And then the Saturday with Unknown Mortal Orchestra, a friend of the show. So a couple people chatting it up. So if you're in Austin, you want to get breakfast tacos, let Jason know. I'll be at the Equinox Sweet Green Sun Life Strip.

Over there, that's kind of where I feel near the Soho house. That's where I feel most at home. That's my kind of keep Austin weird area that I really... That's where me and Link later go to get a coffee. You know, if McConaughey's in town, we'll all go together. But it just depends on shooting schedules. Yeah, and whereas if you are working on a new moonshine or a brisket recipe at the house and you want me to come over... That's a me thing. If you're in East Austin working on a brisket recipe, Jason can take the rental car over there. If you want to take an e-mountain bike ride to a new burnt end shack. You know those fat tire bikes are so popular in Austin. Hot college co-eds fucking going from the gym to class on the fat tire bike after having some burnt tips. All terrain, brother. Burnt tips. What a city. What a fucking city. Can't wait to be back. Yeah, I'm excited. I'm looking forward to planting myself on some real Texan soil. Yeah, let's see here. What else we got? Yeah, we were really quick and then we'll talk about our regular lives. But I just made a note when we were talking about Mariah Carey going on. Kai Senat. And then I saw just the next day, Jonas Brothers are on there and there's like an AI image of all four of them hanging out together. And someone tweeted, working with Kai Senat must be like jury duty for celebrities. And I feel like that sums up our sentiment perfectly, what we were saying. Yeah, it does. Except jury duty, it gives you the illusion of being mandatory, whereas it's technically, you know, when's the last time Chris and Jason went to jury duty? Never done it in my life. Don't come for me now. I pay my taxes, but I ain't doing all that now. I ain't doing all that. I got stuff to do. I watched the BMAs on Sunday and was struck by the performance lineup that the only guitar... How did my cat's eye, girls, go? That's something else, bro. I don't know. I don't even know what to say about it. It's fine, I guess, but the...

The lack of guitars, the only guitars were Youngblood and Aerosmith tribute to Ozzy. Like every single thing was some garbage like we're playing to a track. I don't know, man. The looks were bad. It was something else. But, you know, they started selling tickets to it a while back. Oh, really? So it's packed because it's in a stadium in New Jersey. So it's an arena in New Jersey. Excuse me. So it's packed. Because they just sell tickets. And, like, you know, cat's-eye superfans are happy to pay $100 to be in the building, you know? Yeah, all the Aerosmith superfans in North Jersey can file in. They have a stronghold on North Jersey. But, yeah, it was interesting. I had a big weekend. I went to the W Hotel opening party, which was pretty fun, actually. And then there was a Prada fragrance party. that was the most TikTokers I've ever seen in my life in one place, but DJed by Pink Panther S and Justice. But I, of course, couldn't make it late enough for Justice, so I apologize to all of our French listeners. I can't give a proper review. That's too bad. Well, I mean... Can I get the Pink Pantherist review? Song of the Summer. I also didn't make that. I only was able to catch Venus X opening, so I apologize. I buried the lead on that. I'm sorry. I didn't catch any of the sort of big light talent. I'm sure X did her thing, though, right? She played... that antony and the johnsons that i love so much oh i don't know who did you know i'm talking about as a child who is is that hercules and the love affair it's it yes yes that's that's that song really fucking frankie knuckles remix a legendary song i don't know love that song i've definitely played it too many times to where i can't hear it anymore like so many other songs in the world but it really goes off and i don't think anybody knows it In that situation, these people don't know what day it is. They don't know how to spell their own name. But they're really hot and they don't know what that song is. The beauty of a well-produced song, it's able to transcend age and time and just good drums mixed and tuned correctly with a bass line that works well. It's like a...

It's like a good book. Shakespeare almost, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's what I would say. That's exactly what I would say. All right, we have a guest today. Pamela Hansen is a legendary photographer. She's got a new book, The 90s from Rizzoli, that comes out. literally today i think she's doing the book signing at dashwood tonight which i'm going to go to before this uh my favorite kind of book ain't got no words in it ain't got no words in it but she's been working on this for a while um and it's really something it really since the 90s yeah literally It really captures a moment in time in a way that is extremely glamorous, which is something we're lacking greatly in our modern time. And Pamela, she's still shooting all the time. Yeah, she works all the time. It's not a throwback. It ain't a retrospective. She's also an avid water skier, which I'd like to get into. But there's plenty. That's right. Huge water skier. Okay, hold on. Let me take a note of that. Oh, let me write this down. And she lives in New York City? Yeah, well, and in the Hamptons, I think, is where the water skiing goes down, quote, out east, unquote. They go down in the Hamptons, is what you're saying? As it pertains to the sport and activity of water skiing, okay? Exactly. I can't wait to see how she feels about hydrofoiling, you know? I don't know if she ever... Fake shit. Fake shit. Does PH let go of the leash and just kind of freestyle? Does she just do a little 360s on the wake? Is she doing puff shove it? I feel like she's also pretty good at driving the boat, which is, you know, it's like when you're doing those big waves. You've got to get towed out there by a pro. It's the same. Right, right, right. A good golfer is likely a good caddy as well is what you're saying. Oh, you know I'll throw some grass in the air. The way I hit that three wood, oh, shit. All right, let's give Pamela a call. Okay.

This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by a new podcast from The Guardian stateside with Kai and Carter. This is covering a lot of our bases, Jason. It's trying to slow down. The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? You know, especially when it's not, you know, from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly. A website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools. So those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new, you know, 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. You know, show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional.

as your competition, if not more. So head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking... Something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. When life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code HowLong. Taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted Home Help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code HowLong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. They have a kitchen here that you can just self-serve and grab whatever you want. I remember you telling me that, and it's like funny stuff too, right? Yeah, you open the refrigerator and there's just like a collection of items. And it'll be like, here's like a watermelon and tomato salad. And then there's one thing called the white cube. And it's just like a molecular gastronomy, like whipped cream cube with rose petals on top.

There's the Madelines of the day and things like that. Nothing I want more for a snack than some cubed whipped cream when I'm fucking looking for... Sorry, Jason's in Italy. I was going to say, are you at a spa? In some way, I'm at a hotel called Casa Maria Luigia in Modena, Italy. Modena. What are you doing there? It's just a little vacazione, but Chris and I are going out to a wedding in Sicily this weekend, and then he's too busy to come and enjoy the agroturismo. Wait, isn't that where the best restaurant in the world was in Modena? Is that near the Ferrari factory? It is. Oh, wow. I didn't know you were a gearhead, Pam. Kind of. I also know I once went to some restaurant there that was rated best in the world, and they gave us all my biggest memory. Daniel Hum, and a whole group of people, the ice cream was foie gras ice cream. That really stuck with me. I'm like, how? How did you, motherfucker? How did you blow up my dessert spot? I was really looking for something good. I like that you said I tried the foie gras ice cream, and instead of saying it was good, you said it really stuck with me. Leave it open-ended. Who knows if it was bad or good? I'm sure this restaurant is the... I would assume that restaurant is the same chef that owns the hotel, right, Jason? Yeah, it's called Osteria Francescana from Massimo Bottura. It's like a very chef's table, molecular gastronomy kind of thing. I mean, the food is kind of amazing. Is his wife American? Am I making that up? Yeah, she is. She is. The American, she bagged her a rich Italian guy. I remember. She said, I like Ferraris, so I guess this is going to work. Exactly. Yeah, my wife says, I want some new shoes, and she says, I want a hotel. But you've stayed here before once, right? Yeah, I stayed here. We came out here a couple years ago for my honeymoon, and I fell in love with it because it's a grass field, a grass tennis court, a gym.

free food and nothing else there's no you just sit around all day jason and i spent a lot of time together and a lot of that is in hotels and i've literally never heard him say he likes a hotel i've never this is the only time in the history and obviously this is nicer than most of the places that we're frequenting you know in minneapolis on a thursday but still it's big for you it's big for you to make that kind of declarative statement jason it's also kind of amazing that's where you decided to go on vacation Usually when people go to Italy on vacation, they go to the same, you know, five spots. You're an original. I like it. I'm a different kind of cat, Pamela. You'll learn that over the next 57 minutes. Yeah, he's a real different kind of guy. Well, I've listened to you a lot, so I think I understand you more than you think I do. Oh. Well, all right. I guess we're done here. Thanks for joining me. Well, okay, that's good. It is a little one-sided. I obviously know who you are, but I only really know you through your... photographical work. As we said in the intro, the book doesn't have a whole lot of words, so I'm looking forward to getting to know your personality on today's conversation. It has some credits in the back of the book if you need to read something. I did see the table of contents and the credits in the back. And the introduction. There's an intro. We should start doing the way everybody wants 10,000 steps. I think we should do a minimum word read per day. I think that's a good thing for... the world to sort of move in that direction. Set a goal, yeah. Yeah, set a goal. I was listening to a podcast this morning when I was trying to fall asleep, and they were saying, you know, the drop-off in reading is a direct drop-off to the overall IQ of humans across the world. And when the Internet and the iPhone came out, that's when the first time our IQ rate stopped raising in time, and then it started going down. So, yeah, 10,000 words. Do you think if people listen to books, it's the same thing as reading a book in terms of brain power? I was talking about that this morning with my wife. She had the same question. And I think we decided it's better than nothing. Yeah. But I think the act of reading it and the scientific process of it going through your eyes and your brain, deducing what's going on. You don't have the author.

using innuendo or anything like that. You have to use it all yourself. You have to create it all yourself, which then I'm assuming makes you a better writer, but we're waiting to see what happens with Chris's book, you know? Because he reads a lot. You can't multitask. You can't multitask when you're reading. That's the thing. You have to sit down and concentrate. If you're listening to it, in theory, you could be doing anything. Literally. I just don't, I don't think it's, but I think Jason, I think you're right. I think better than nothing. is the best way to put it, because obviously it's better than listening to this podcast or staring at the wall or watching Netflix. You could learn a lot listening to How Long Gone. Even Pamela knows that. I do. I do. I know that very well. I'm a fan. We don't necessarily learn things that we want to learn or will be helpful, but I am learning things. Yeah, or need to know. You never know what you need to know until you hear it, right? That's true. Well, you're very social. You're out and about, so there's always conversations. My archivist was talking about how she went to see you guys live one night. This was like a year ago. I think, Chris, when you first told me you were doing it, I don't know how long you guys have been doing the podcast. And I was like, wait, you know those guys? She was like, my boyfriend's a huge fan. He's like a super fan. Yeah, that's how we got them. She's like, while I sit in your studio and organize photos, there's nothing better than how long gone kind of on the – Yeah, we're there for you. Playing on the high five. That's when I discovered how much of the superstars you guys were. And that was probably the most chic way of someone telling us they discovered – I heard about it from my archivist. No, I had started listening to it. I heard about it from Chris. It was validated. Yeah, she heard about it from the horse. She heard it from the horse's mouth. How long has the archivist been working since the book process? Ten years. Longer. Over. Longer. She knows every single picture of every single person. Like I could say, oh, this picture of Chris on the Banana Republic thing. She'd be like, oh, yeah. And then she just goes in the computer and brings it up. Or I'll be like, even like.

some obscure friend oh yeah i remember that picture okay so we're saying we're saying like you can go deep into the it doesn't need to be a famous person she's got the the rolodex of every person in your life that you've taken a picture of pretty much that's how does she organize things like do you even do you even like look at it or is it like that's that's not your department No, I do. Well, everything is on, you know, it's been scanned. Sure, it's in the cloud. Everything's been scanned. You know, and people are like, oh, I need this. You know, there's requests for pictures. Or someone will call in and be like, do you have any pictures of people jumping off a diving board that, you know, for sale? And then she'll just do a deep dive, for example. You're like, funnily enough, we do. We have plenty of those. Just let me know what you're thinking price-wise, and we can kind of figure out how much longer until AI replaces your archivist. I don't know, actually. I don't see how that could actually happen. I don't know if that'll be in my lifetime. I don't know. The AI thing is interesting. Let's see what happens. What if your archivist is listening right now and she's like... I don't want her to know that I am using AI to do my job already. That I don't care about. That I don't care. As long as it gets done, you don't give a shit. Exactly. As long as it gets done and she's there. I've always liked people who are like, here's the money, get it done. I don't care how it happens. I don't care what you got to do. Get the job done. That seems like, for someone who's been taking pictures for as long as you have, that seems like such a task. And the organization, you're right. If you don't do it. you're going to lose out on money because you're right. People are calling all the time for stuff. And if you don't know how to get it quickly, they'll get it from somebody else. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, yeah, she's amazing. I mean, she's incredible that she, I'll be like, Oh, it's so-and-so's birthday. Is there a picture back from 1983 of we were in Mexico? I don't know. Do you know what they look like? And she'll be like, Oh, this one? That's so fun. That's such a cool game to play with your own work. Even though you need it, I know. But she's a painter too, so she works with me three days a week. And the other days she paints, which I really love too. That she's not like, what am I doing just sitting in an office looking at this person's work? I kind of end up supporting her work. I was always told that photographers, you know.

would prefer to have an assistant or someone in this position that doesn't want to be a photographer. It makes it like it's a different thing. There's like career assistants who are so good at that job. That is true, actually. That don't have the ambition. But that as a career assistant would be really hard because if you're on set. But they end up being lighting technicians, I think. Really good lighting technicians. But somewhere that has to be unsatisfying. Oh, for sure. You become an assistant without wanting to become a photographer. I mean, on set. This is different because she's in the office. Yeah, yeah. It's very different. But, no, I think there's some, though, like the pay is pretty good. It's pretty exciting if you're with the right person. Right. You know, if you're doing the right stuff, it's fun for a while. Depending on the craft services, it's not a bad gig. I think they've gone down in quality over the years, but I could be wrong. You're not making demands for specific menu items? Half the time, I mean, I don't even think about it. You like food? I mean, sometimes it's okay because it's gotten organic and all that. But in the old days in Paris, we used to stop and go sit down at a restaurant and have wine. That's actually insane. We killed two hours. Can you imagine that? Minimum. A day? No, that's a very good example of how time has changed. Yes, exactly. You were getting into your lighting bag, Jason? Yeah, whenever you hear people say, you know, photography, it's all just lighting. You know, I just, I hit the shutter and that's it, but it's, you know, 99% of it is the lighting. And people will argue how much that's bullshit or not. Where do you land on it? I think the light's really important, but I think you have to see the light as a photographer. I think if you're not aware of the light, I don't see how, sorry, animals have to go outside. I don't see how you can have a point of view. Sure. But I do think that people don't maybe know as much about light now with the digital. And I think they just are like, oh, I'll fix it in post. And I think that's maybe where it starts getting in trouble. I don't know. What do you think, Chris? You're a creative director. I agree with that. Don't slander me on my own podcast. No, that was a compliment. What I have learned is that, and you know this, and I've seen you.

you know do it so i know it to be true but it's more about how you can relate to the subject than it is any technical thing like there's always somebody you can pay to load the film and figure out the light and do that and do that. But you're not going to get it. Like I just meet people sometimes and I'm like, you have zero personality. How do you do this job? Like you have to have, you have to be at least curious or interested, I think, to be successful. Well, you would think, yeah. Unless you're shooting landscapes or something, but you know, when you're shooting humans. Yeah, with the humans. Or if you're shooting models that are it becomes very sculptural and it's like really high fashion. But even then, like, I mean, Avedon was really had an amazing connection with the people he photographed. I just think that's the I think that really is what I've at least from my experience. That's what the job is. And I think the technical stuff. people just like to be nerds like there's some people that like love gear whether they're a musician right or photographer or whatever right and then there's other people that are like i don't give a shit about that like i just i want to do my thing and i'll use whatever tools i have i mean i think what my experience is that i mean obviously for years i did it myself i mean i had one assistant and i was like just bring these lights in and But sometimes if I give too much power to an assistant who has a specific point of view for lighting that's not mine, is where you get into trouble. Do you see what I mean? They're like, yeah, I have this great idea and we're going to put a light here and a light there. I was like, nah, just use one light and just bounce it. We want some continuous. We're good. To all the aspiring photographers out there who are assistants, you're getting paid. Not for your ideas. You're getting paid for Pamela's ideas, not your own. Exactly. I had a thought. Or you can bring good ideas. I'm open to listening. Yeah, of course. No, of course. No, I mean, obviously. Sometimes they have really good ideas. Yeah, yeah. And then I can steal them. Those skateboarders have really good ideas all the time. I agree. You never know. No, you never know. Then you keep them on payroll, so then they can't.

take your job, you know what I mean? That's the oldest trick in the book. Yeah, there's a lockdown there. Did you assist it, though, before you got started, or no? I did. I assisted Arthur Algort, but just when he was, I was really his driver. I met him. I didn't know this. You mean literal, not metaphorical driver of his work? You mean he drove the car? No, I lived in Paris, and I met him while I was living in Colorado, and I started looking at fashion magazines. I didn't really think about fashion. I was working for a fashion photographer there. Because I had to have a job. And I had met a fashion photographer in New York. I was working at a gallery in Boston. We came for the sales. And I was like, what's a fashion photographer? And he was like, oh, you become an assistant. I was like, wow, okay, I could do that and make money. Because I was going back to live with my boyfriend that my parents disapproved of. So they cut me off and they had been helping me. So I was like, okay. Wow, Pam, I didn't take you as a bad girl like that. So I was like, okay, I can, who's the? local fashion photographer and i called him up and he was like i don't really need an assistant in denver and i ended up working for him for under minimum wage for a year and i printed all his stuff he did all these newspaper ads for the local department store and then i my boyfriend was also a photographer so i started doing makeup for him which i was really bad at But then I had looked at Arthur's pictures and Lisa, who did the introduction to my book, was modeling at the time. And she knew him. And I was so I called him. I was like, I'm coming through New York. And he took me out for lunch, which is amazing. He didn't know me from a hole in the ground. And he looked at my book. He was like, get rid of this. This is good. This is bad. This is good. And he was like, you probably won't be a very good assistant. But if you move to Paris, you speak French. I think he liked that he thought that I came from, like, a good family because he always liked that. So I moved to Paris, and when he came, I had a car, so I drove him around, and I spoke French, and I helped him. That is quite helpful, I have to say. I mean, if you don't speak French and you don't drive, then you're offering a pretty good deal. Yeah, that's more than most Coloradians possess, I would say. Yeah, for sure. No offense to the fine state.

But you grew up in Switzerland? Yeah, I grew up in Switzerland. So you learned French there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up speaking French. I went to grade school in French. Okay. So his assistants would, so that's how I started. I worked for him like four or five times. And I started going on shoots and helping him, you know, because he had other assistants. But that was my assistant. This is like prime time for him? Or is this like a little before? This is prime time. 80s. Early 80s, actually, because then I went on my own kind of 84. So you only did it for a couple of years. I really just did it like three or four times because it was just like you come to Paris to shoot the couture, to shoot for Vogue. You know, that was the only time. And the rest of the time I was just scrambling around trying to. Taking little tiny pictures that went in the front of the magazine. Oh, yeah. The little square ones. Showing up at the magazines every day like, I happen to be in the neighborhood. Do you have anything for me to do? Actually physically going to the office and be like, y'all need pictures? Yes, because this was free. You could do that. You could do that. Yeah. And they were like, yeah, can you go photograph this woman's garden like an hour and a half out of Paris? I was like, OK. I feel like driving is really the reason you have a career. I feel like this is really I didn't know. I never realized how important it opens doors. It really does. No pun intended. It seems like it opened a lot of doors for you. It did. And that when I went on vacation, I just went to my parents in Geneva and I drove. And then somebody canceled a job like early January for Marie Claire. And the guy called me and he's like, I've got a real like story for you. It was a beauty story. So I drove back to Paris. How far is Geneva from Paris? Six hours. Oh, I didn't realize it was drivable like that, I guess. I never thought about it. Five when Pam's driving, though. Yeah, she's lead foot Pam at the wheel. You've got to be careful. You mentioned Lisa, your friend who wrote the introduction, Lisa Love.

My wife is a big fan of hers and of yours as well. But whenever we're at a party and Lisa shows up with the shades on, she's just like, oh, royalty has entered the room. She's a cool customer. Cool customer. But the photo of you where it's you and her when you're like five years old in the photo booth, it's like the cutest pic I've ever seen in my life. It's so sweet. I love it. Thanks. And that's you making the goofy face, I'm assuming? Of course. And then Lisa has the perfect model-esque smile even at four. It was obvious even at that age. You're like, so who's taking the photo and who's getting photographed? Got it. That's really funny. I've never been to Geneva and I really want to go. And I have a friend who goes all the time for watch stuff and she loves it. And I just feel like I haven't had a reason. But is the natural beauty enough to pull me to the motherland? ridiculously beautiful I mean everything I didn't like about Geneva growing up there that was kind of boring and bourgeois I love about it now even though I don't go back that much anymore since my parents died but it's like Oh, there's nothing really to do. Okay, that's nice. I had honestly never thought about Geneva until you posted. I think we discussed it once already. You posted all these photos of your mom who's like, your mom was like a very chic woman and the house was so beautiful. It really made it look appealing. And it's really beautiful there. We went back in January because we sold the house and stayed at a hotel. It was weird staying in a hotel after you've spent your entire life in the same house. Because that house, did you grow up? Were they still the house you grew up in? Yeah, that is weird. Yeah. That is weird. But it was still so beautiful. I mean, Switzerland's incredible. It looks like, I say, it looks like a screensaver in the summer, especially, I think. The way that, like, Aspen sort of can. Where it's just like, this looks insane how lush something is. It's ridiculous. And the cows are really clean. And the water's really blue.

And the flowers are really red. The hills are alive. They've got clean cows. They are alive. They've got clean cows. That's a good – that's a big selling point for me personally. You smell that? Exactly. Nothing. This is a clean cow country we got here. Oh, that's really funny. I think also in the intro there's a quote from Lisa talking – I think talking about your photography saying she made everything look as it should. which was something that really kind of reached out to me. And that's kind of like the hidden talent or the secret sixth sense of a real photographer is how you're able to kind of capture that where it just looks as it should can mean anything, but you know it when you see it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think it was, you know, when I first moved to Paris and I lived with her, all of my friends were models and all of that's who we hung out with. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable, and they're just easy but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts. Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada.

That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Hi Talk House Network listeners, it's your old friend Nels Klein from Wilco here. Wilco is touring this summer and we'd love to see you somewhere on the road. We're playing shows this June and July in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Chautauqua, New York, Lafayette, New York, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, Vienna, Virginia, Forest Hills, New York, Portland, Maine, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Memphis, Tennessee, La Grange, Georgia, Charleston. South Carolina, Virginia Beach, Virginia, Wheeling, West Virginia, and Columbus, Ohio. Plus, there are even more dates, some with Willie Nelson that I didn't even mention here. So please go to wilkoworld.net to see the full list of dates. We'll see you on the road this summer. This episode is brought to you by Prime. What if you had one more chance with the one that got away? Sam, you came home. based on the best-selling novel from Carly Fortune. Every year after follows childhood friends Sam and Percy as they reunite in the dreamy, nostalgic lakeside town of Berries Bay. Love can be hard to find. So if you're lucky enough to find that person, never let go. A second chance at first love. Every year after, streaming June 10th, only on Prime. That's who we hung out with. So that's who I photographed. And they were putting their makeup on. At first, I didn't really do fashion because I didn't really understand or care about it as much. So I was really interested in the girl. So it ended up being more beauty and a lot of lingerie. And I mean, the first commercial I did, which was, I think, 1984, the art director was English. And he's like, I'm doing a bra commercial. You're perfect for it. And I was like, I don't know how to do a commercial. And he was like. It's really easy. I'll get you a DP. And I was like, all right, cool. So the first commercial I did, the girl, this is so French. It was a 30-second commercial for 25 seconds. She was walking around topless. And it was like the camera was following her in the apartment, and she was having coffee, and she was fixing the flowers. And then in the end, she puts the bra on. This was for television broadcast. Obviously, the breasts are out of frame.

Unfortunately. No, they're in frame. Oh, they're in frame. No, this is France. It's from the waist up. She has this little underwear on. She's walking to this beautiful apartment and saying, I have my coffee and talking about this lingerie. Jason's scandalized by this. He's a little bit of a prude. I mean, I don't know. In my mind, if I'm going to put on my Don Draper hat, it's... It's from nipple up. We never see the bare breasts. And then at the end, she puts the bra on. So then we realize she was topless the whole time. A little bit hotter. That's all I'm saying. That's why we can tell that you're from Southern California and not France. But I agree with you. I agree with you from an advertising perspective. But I think when you have that sort of... I've seen breasts before, okay? I'm a grown man. Come on. I just want to be clear. Not on TV. In real life. That sounds like a great commercial. I'll check it out on YouTube. No, it's just really funny. So I think what she meant was that it was... just they were very honest images because it was just recording which other people had done in different ways but it was just an intimacy with the models that maybe and i guess from a woman to a woman maybe that's what i was going to mention that like the female gaze of it all i think is very important i think that's something that i guess i'm really i really love angela hill's pictures and it's the same it's a similar it's a reverse terry richardson it's it's a very it's yeah yeah it's like a girl yeah it's like a girlhood in like a sisterhood thing right like a man just can't capture i don't think i think that was the beginning of it too because the other photographer obviously there was like sarah moon and deborah tuberville and annie lebowitz and who were doing incredible pictures i mean but it was a different it was more mannered i think maybe i was doing images that were more honest and more intimate in a way that felt very real And I think maybe that's why it stood out more. I don't know. Yeah, for sure. I mean, in Annie Leibovitz's image, even then, feels like there's 50 people there making it happen, which is why they're great, but it doesn't feel super off the cuff or natural, let's say. Right. And you still have your home, too, so you're doing pretty good. Okay, I want to... You were talking about, you know...

assisting back in the day, driving, processing, developing, and things like that. Were you retouching yourself, your own photos, yourself, or did you have somebody else doing it? We didn't retouch. I had a darkroom in my bathroom in Paris. I just put like a wooden board over the bathtub. And also the labs were so good. I mean, the quality of the negatives, it's just not the same. Okay. So you never really had to retouch? No, nothing is retouched. Okay. I mean, when we scanned, we had to scan everything to put in the book. One model, I'm not going to say who it was, requested some light retouching in areas, but nobody else. Naomi Campbell. Naomi Campbell. Obviously, you can't say anything, but that would be my guess. That's actually so cool to be that aware of your image and what's going on that you're like, no, no, no. We're not going to. Even though I'm in a few photos in a book of a thousand, I'm going to make sure my shit looks good. And even though I was at the peak of my beauty at the time. Literally. I respect it on every level. But when you're putting together a book like this that spans so many years, do you have to get in touch with everyone? Like the publications, the models, everyone? No. I wanted to get releases from the models out of respect for them. OK. And, you know, so 90 percent of them. I mean, there's some that honestly I was like a one shoot. I don't know where they are. I don't know how to reach them. We tried to reach everybody. But no. And everybody was super. It was actually an amazing process. I just out of respect for them. Yeah. Because you never know, you know. No, that's a nice thing. I was going to say I'm sure there are some people that slip through the cracks, you know, that aren't. you know, let's say online in 2025. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's nice to get there. I feel like people just don't do anything they don't have to do. And when it comes to so like, cause the process is so, I mean, this took you a year. I mean, this is, well, the last year was when, I mean, it took me like I was working on it probably two or three years, just going through my archives. And I was like, Oh, maybe I should do a book. I love this picture. Oh, I love that picture.

So that was kind of, I started by editing my archives. I have so much stuff in storage. And I was like, do I need the lingerie negatives from 1983? Don't know who the client was. Don't know who the girl was. Don't like the pictures. Why am I paying for those? Sure. And after that, so then I just started editing. And that was really a year. Once I worked with Joseph, we selected the images. Then my team had to scan everything and get the releases. And that was. It took a minute. Yeah. Once you, I mean, the more people that get involved, the longer things take. Yeah. In situations like that. But I'm glad, I'm glad we did that because I think it's been really nice for the girls too. And the response was really sweet and everybody seemed really happy. Yeah. And even if you're, you know, a top supermodel from the nineties. We are living in the Instagram age, and we all need content, so, you know? Boy, is that true. Naomi's like, great, now I need something to put up on the grid on Tuesday for the algorithm. You use Instagram like a normal person, I would say. I try to use it just because I guess it's useful. I mean, I'm not against. Well, Chris, what do you mean by using it as a normal person versus somebody using it as their professional portfolio? I guess I just mean it feels like it comes from you. It doesn't feel like it's coming. Right. That's what I mean. Obviously, you're going to post work, but you're also going to post videos of dogs. It's not some insane overthought thing. No. Not at all. Everyone's like, do you do your own Instagram? I was like, of course I do. It's fun. Do you look at Instagram a lot? And I want to control it. Do you look at it a lot? I try not to, but I do kind of if I'm in a cab and I'm going up, you know, stuff like that. It is kind of a mind fuck, but it's also really interesting. And I feel like you kind of have to today. That's exactly right. You do. I don't know. We know some people who don't use it, but they're in a position where. they look at it as a professional tool only. And there's somebody who could do that for them, which I totally get. Right. I'm not in that position. I have to use it to make money and talk about myself. And if I were in a different position, I would love to not, but it doesn't, I don't think it affects my like.

mental the way it does some people. I'm not jealous of someone's vacation or whatever. Yeah, no, me either. I don't care about that at all. You go on a lot of vacations. If anything, I'm like, that looks like a cool place. I may want to go there. Chris, do you ever get jealous of maybe somebody's physique in a gym? Oh, yeah. All day long. No, absolutely. You could post a picture of your food at this restaurant. I keep scrolling. I'll give you a like, obviously, but I'll keep scrolling. Thank you. But if I follow one of my gym guys and he's... If I was showing off my teardrop quads or my V-shaped abdomen area, then you might feel the same way that our wives might feel about somebody. off the coast of ischia like oh that's how big of a boat you got fucking bitch yeah no 100 but it is it is changed it's it's changed how we perceive our looks for sure i think overall you're comparing yourself to someone all the time yeah i'm happy for you it's changed so much um i think it's changed a lot of how we see things yeah for sure oh yeah but i think having a healthy relationship with it is becoming more of a Trend is maybe the wrong word, but I think it's people are thinking about it more and not in an extreme binary. I either use this all the time or I have to throw my phone out the window. I think people are starting to be like, I can use this for an appropriate amount of time and get what I need from it. Unless you're 16 or 12. Are you around kids like that? No, I'm not. But I was just thinking when you were saying that, I said, yeah, everyone I know is saying that. kids in their 30s or you know like your guys age i guess yeah in the same way that some people have i'm able to have a couple glasses of wine at dinner right and 12 year olds might not be able to make that responsible decision the same way with instagram i think they're more obsessed in comparing themselves anyway oh yeah it's a whole other conversation i mean i think about it the most when it relates to like

When we would leave school, it was over for the day. I know what I'm saying. Like when I when I got home at three o'clock, then it's up to Chris to hang out, to make himself busy, to hang out with people that he actually likes. And now it's like you're just you can't whatever is wrong is something you can't escape. That's what's the most terrifying to me. Well, you used to be able to be bored. Yeah, that's why. Yeah, true. Someone was saying last night while I read the news on Instagram, I was like, you can't have that as your news source. It's just rough. You're like, let me stop you right there. Well, I only follow Al Jazeera and CNN and the Wall Street Journal. It is possible to get news from Instagram, but you shouldn't have that as your only source, I would say. Yeah, you have to be careful. You have to be mindful of what you're watching and hearing, I guess. You have to be an expert at knowing what is real and what is fake. Luckily, Chris and I are. I mean, things are so much. You can't go backwards, and I'm not nostalgic at all, but it is true. looking at all those images when i was researching the book there's just a kind of ease and intimate i was the only one taking pictures like i was talking to a friend of mine who's a model and i was like what goes on backstage now with the shows because it used to be there was three you know there was a photographer from vogue there was a photographer from bizarre and one news you know you had to have special passes and she goes now it's just influencers and there's thousands of people with phones that changes the whole nature of the image you know nobody wants a great you know, candid shot of a model changing. They won't. I also have to be in the photo now. So you and I are going to sit, you know, me and Turlington are going to have the selfie together because if I'm not in the photo, then it's not worth it. I know you're, I know you're, I know you're in hair and makeup right now, but if you could just look at me, that'd be great. But even when you're shooting them in hair makeup, they're like, wait, where's this going? What's happening here? Who's this for? What are you going to use this for? Yeah. Because they don't know who you are. Exactly. It's tough.

It's tough out there. Okay, well, going back to the 90s, this is more of a Chris question, though, I thought of when I was throwing through the pages. Of all the 90s girls in this book, Chris, who was the one for you? That is actually tough. I would say, honestly... Christy Turlington in her prime is pretty as good as it gets as far as. That was my suggestion as well. I think you're not alone. I hate to break it to you guys. All right, guys, calm down. That's like two guys saying pizza is our favorite food. Right. I like ice cream. That's what I was going to say. I think it's partly because I've seen her around in the last whatever decade, and she looks amazing. And she's like. I just think there's something to be said about about in today's world, like aging appropriately and how like powerful it is basically that like you look amazing, but you also look your age. And I think that is some that is something that is it's so rare now that I think it really stands out. And just the way she leads her life and the choices she's made. And, you know, I mean, in that 90s documentary or whatever, you know, that whatever it was. I forget who did it. Was it HBO or whatever? Yeah. She says early on, she goes, yeah, when they told me that I was too big for the fashion show, I was like, that's it. Now I'm going to go back to school. You know, she went back to school when she was still super busy. She decided to renegotiate her Calvin Klein contract. She was all of like 20 years old. I was like, I still wouldn't have the wherewithal to do that. And she'll be like, okay. No, it's great. You guys are paying me. I'm happy. Yeah. I mean, I think that also models, you know, especially during that, you know, it's like if you're 13 at a mall in Iowa and, you know, you get moved to New York, I think that it's going to be tough to make clear headed decisions, even if you're 18, 19 at that point. Really hard. But she had a general and she is ridiculously beautiful. Yeah, of course. I mean, even now, because I know her and she's a friend, like we'll be having dinner and I'll be like.

Wow. Your neck is so incredible. Your neck? Your neck is so long. You're like, I just can't turn it off. Your neck. I mean, this is unbelievable. No, but. That's beautiful. You've got the neck of a teen. You realize that it's anyway. There's something about it. No, I know. No, I mean, people are. Those people of that caliber are literally built different. It's a different thing, and you don't lose some of that just because you get older. That still exists. I said to my friend, I was like, wow, Christy's next. She goes, I know. It's always been amazing. I was so in it with all the models emotionally that I was rarely like, oh, let me look at her as an actual. Yes. I also think a lot of the candid photos of all of those girls in that era, Like, they look cool now. Like, models now are wearing, like, you know, Balenciaga and look insane. Whereas, like, Christy Tillington's wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. Kate Moss is wearing, like, gazelles. Right. It's like a very, it's oddly very on trend right now. you know what they looked like they sort of made that cool and it ages so much better than a lot of things yeah you know models had longer lives they started you know now i don't i mean i don't shoot that many models anymore but i think it's like oh no you can't she won't do a double shoot you know she won't do a shoot with another model i'm like but nobody knows her you know in those days you could get christy and naomi they would work together you know you could get and create pictures and they would get experience and it was just a very different slow down did you slow down at any point like when you had kids you slow down a little bit or did you just work all the way through when i had kids i worked all the way through then i think in the early when digital started i kind of had an identity crisis i was like what are my pictures supposed to look like now hang on and i feel like Then when I started going through my archive, I was like, oh, no, this is what you want to do. This is what you like to do. This is what you're good at. And that, I think, is the problem with seeing so much. And everything's watered down. Like I see, oh, they're redoing the Avedon.

west shoot for some like how can you copy that oh yeah i mean that's every year every year i'm sorry every year they redo that you don't actually think you can do that yeah i don't know if people think they can actually do it i just think there's a a level of like we ain't got no ideas left like i just don't know especially I mean, I think a lot of younger photographers never had to assist. You can make a real living very fast without doing any work, really. As far as understanding how things work and how you can't just go do Avedon. But also understanding what you see and how you see things. I mean, that's what's going to make the difference. Totally. You may be like, hey, I want to do a... shoot inspired by the avidon american west shoots as you know like a white background out in the field but then you know a photographer should be like yeah but i need you know you should bring your own point of view into it yeah so maybe you don't have different lighting or maybe you have a different so you can work together on concepts but i had i just feel like so much of it is just being outright copied and that maybe photographers don't know what they really see or what they really like because it becomes they don't maybe they don't have time to develop that they weren't doing the little pictures in the front of the magazine of the woman's garden in paris no they they no they really weren't i mean i think that i think there's some of that i also think that just it's a different there's you have access to too much yeah we talk about this a lot on how long gone but like you're right the blessing and the curse of the barrier of entry being lowered i had to go buy a a book or a magazine if I wanted to see what was in it. You know what I mean? And that's like how you develop what you like. If you can see everything all the time, all together, I think that can sort of work against you. I completely agree. Work against you. When everyone can do everything on a phone, I can make an album, film a movie, do a photo shoot on my phone.

99% of it is going to be horse shit, and then 1% of it is going to be a genius new idea being created. It's really true. I also wanted to talk to you about water skiing, because I told Jason in the intro, I was like, Pam is an avid water skier. Yeah, I want to talk about smoking cigarettes. He wants to talk about water skiing, the duality of the show. Oh, my God. I miss cigarettes so much. How long ago did you stop? I've gone off and on since I was 16. But I officially stopped a year ago. No, I've smoked with you. I officially stopped a year ago. I finally was like, I just can't do this anymore. Okay, so not even like a cheeky occasional. Look, good for you. Took me a long time. I mean, I love smoking, and it's so fun, and it's social. But you're not like a nicotine gum. You're like, I'm good. Did that phase that didn't work. What was your brand of cigarette? My original brand of cigarette, you guys probably don't even know what it is, were larks. They had charcoal filters. I saw a picture of my agent at the time when I used to smoke larks, and then it became American Spirits. What color? Yellow. There we go. Love a yellow spirit. What about you guys? I went from Parliament to a yellow spirit. As well. Parliaments like Lark. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But are you back on Parliaments, though, aren't you? I mean, a little bit. A little bit of Parliament. Yeah. Or the Hestia as well. Shout out to Hestia. Yeah. There's like a guy we know. What's that? It's basically like the only existing independent cigarette brand that's like the cleanest, basically. It's kind of like what American Spirit was when it first came out, like pure organic. No big tobacco. Oh, that's good. It was fascinating to me just because, like, starting a cigarette. I know. I don't even know how to wrap my head around that. Insurmountable task. Yeah, insurmountable task. Although social smoking is up, so maybe it was a good idea. You know, you hang out with a lot of young people, so you're seeing what's going on. They smoke. They smoke. Well, the people you hang out with definitely smoke. I'll get a card next to the house, Pamela. You'll love it.

I didn't mean to divert us from the water skiing. No, no, no, that's okay. Back to the beautiful art of water skiing. But is this something you did as a kid? No, I was a big downhiller because obviously growing up in Switzerland, that's what we did year round. And then one summer I was, I think I learned how to water ski in Crete on a family vacation when I was 16 because I had a big crush on the water ski instructor. Classic. These water sports guys always win. They always win. And then. I went in the south of France after I had kids one summer before we came to the Hamptons, and I was like, ah, I should water ski in the Hamptons. I forgot how much fun this is. One thing led to another, and then I bought a little boat. So you have the boat, you have the skis, and who is your go-to driver? Who do you trust the most behind the boat wheel? I trust Doug Lloyd. Do you know who Doug Lloyd is? He's a creative director, but anyway, I ski with him. and another friend of mine i have two friends that i trust okay to drive me but i've seen people we know and when i see them skiing are you driving yes okay yeah so so you're also i love i love taking people water skiing it's fun like jeff and sarah i've seen jeff and sarah who's better jeff or sarah Jeff Waterski, Sarah Wakeboards. I mean, Jeff is really good. He grew up in Minnesota. He was jumping on the wakeboard. That's true. He comes from a skateboarding background as well. That's true. I'm very interested in skiing in both water and snow. You have to come out. Come out. Come out and visit. We'll take you water skiing. I don't know how much time you have for me to learn just on a weekend. The season is short. I would love to watch you bust your ass for two hours until you finally figure out how to do it. How bad does it hurt when you really eat shit on that glassy water? I have bruise. That's why I wear a wetsuit, a short wetsuit, because I have bruise. Otherwise, I don't take as many risks as I used to. But it's so much fun. Talk about clearing your head. You just can't think of anything else. Right.

Just hold on. And every time it's like, am I going to be able to get up again? Am I going to remember? And then when you're out there like early in the morning and no one's there, I mean, it's incredible. And it's fun being on the boat. That's why I like taking people. That's like why I take Sarah and Jeff and the kids. It's just really fun to be out there. We got to get a boat, Chris. I recommend it. What is your also, I've run into you several times having like a long lunch. And I feel like that's something that you're passionate about. And I feel like Jason could also be passionate about that, but maybe hasn't gotten to that point in his life. Do you have any tips on sort of what are the what are the keys to long lunching? Is it is it just a conversation for life? OK, just conversation and being in a place where you're comfortable and they don't rush you to get out. OK, so that's why I always go to Bar Pedy. They don't rush you out like home. Yeah. Well, Tuesday at 1 o'clock, it's a little more mellow over there than it is Friday night at 8 p.m. Yeah, true. But that's not a lunch. That's a dinner. When you're at a long lunch at Bar Pedy, are we outside or inside? Depending on the day. I like the corner table inside. I mean, it depends what I'm doing, whether or not I'm long lunching, obviously. No, I'm not saying that you're every day for three hours. I'm just saying I feel like that's something I also like it. I get anxious if I'm there too long because I'm often with someone who really has nothing to do. And so I I'm like, I don't want to be the guy on my phone, but I'm like, I have to earn money for my family. You know, so it's a tough it's a tough deal. You're young and you're prime. You're right. You do need to work. I've if this is my prime, I'm I'm concerned, but I'm I'm hopefully in. I think maybe, you know, like you were saying, you know, conversation being the key point. As I've gotten older and as Chris and I have interviewed all these amazing people over the last few years on the show, the amount of conversations that I enjoy, it's pretty low. I feel like my nerve endings in my brain have been burned off and it has to be like Salman Rushdie or some level of conversation to get me fucking going.

Don't beat around the bush. But when you're with the best three times a week, it's hard. It's going to be hard. It's true. It's true. You guys do a really good job, though. Well, thank you. Thank you. Jason, I actually feel the opposite because I think that now I know I'm more able to take it in a direction that is interesting for me. Listen. And hopefully that works for the other person. I am so interested in people that I love listening to podcasts. I'm like, I could do that. I want to interview people. People always say to me, like, you should have been an interviewer. So I was shooting, get this, Woody Allen, a portrait of Woody Allen for Marfa Magazine. When was this? This was, like, two months ago. And I was like, should I do it? Is it wrong? Have you met him before? No. I mean, I saw him once. Get this. My gym in Paris was at the plaza. At the Ritz, I mean. Because they had this great... And I was in the gym one day with Jane Fonda and Woody Allen. You know, funnily enough, this is so strange. I've been in a gym with Jane Fonda as well because she lived in Atlanta. Right. And the gym I went to, she would come with her little dog at like. I would show up hungover at like 1 p.m., and that was Jane's workout time. Isn't that hysterical? So you've seen Woody, obviously. If you live in New York, you see Woody, but you've never interacted with him. No, and the girl from the magazine was interviewing him. She's based in London. Yeah. And I was just biting my tongue because I was like, I wanted to keep going, well, what about this? What about that? She was doing the classic interview on set, which can be problematic for everybody involved, depending on the... I mean, I knew what I was getting into, so it was fine, and I was very curious. How long did you have with Woody? Like an hour. I didn't really need a lot of time. It was in his library at his house. He was very easy. She said, what do you think about Jeff Bezos getting married in Venice and stealing? That's where you got married. And he was like, I don't know. The guy has money.

He wants to have a big wedding. Let him have a big wedding. And I was like, and then she was like, how do you get inspired? Like, what's your inspiration? He goes, well, I, you know, I work in bed and I say, oh, well, there's a guy and he's going to get a divorce. Oh, and then he hires an investigator. Oh, and then this happened. It was just so. Kind of Woody Allen. He's like, I've made the same movie 30 times. I think I just kind of do my thing. I don't know. I've mastered it. Yeah, I've literally mastered it. I'm Woody, goddammit. My genre. Yeah, I'm inspired by it. It comes to me. My shit, my own shit. But you shoot a lot for town and country now too, right? It depends on the stories. I don't shoot a lot, but I shoot for them a little bit depending on what we're doing. What is your appetite as far as work goes now? Are you at a point where you only just do stuff that's interesting to you? Yeah, that's fun or that's financially beneficial. Sure, of course. There's that. Everyone's got a price? Everyone's got a price. I've been shooting for Netflix a lot, which I actually really like. I really like the people at Netflix. It pays well and you shoot really interesting people and they're really cool. So I went to Telluride for them. Shout out to our Netflix family. Did you set up like a little studio type thing? No, I didn't. I shot them like outside on, you know, I want it to look like Telluride because I was like, well, you're hiring me. You don't need me to do a studio. That's not what. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. A lot of people ask that. Well, because that's usually what they do at those. Right. Like Vanity Fair will have one or New York Magazine will have one. That's usually what the... But then it kind of looks the same. I wanted to kind of do them out. It was cool. That was fun. I enjoyed it. So it's all kinds of... Obviously, Netflix has plenty of things at Telluride, so it's all kinds of people? Or was it focused on one project? No, it was a couple of projects. But I was interested in meeting the... I got to shoot the directors, like Richard Linklater and Noah Baumbach, who I know, and then the guy that did Conclave.

Big Noah. Named Edward Berger. Oh, yeah, yeah. I made a joke about Richard Linklater in the fucking intro. That's a funny. Oh, you did? How funny. Just a classic keep Austin weird joke. You know, you got to think of Linklater when you get into that. Actually, I was thinking sorry to interrupt you, Chris. My wife is a wardrobe stylist and she's talked about how, you know, we're talking about influencers behind the scenes and taking photos and people's relationships with their own image is a lot different now than it was before. Right. And she said it's quite common nowadays to see mirrors set up on set so the model can see themselves while they're being shot. Is this something that you've noticed as well? Well, I think there was always marriage. I mean, the top girls would put the outfit on and look at themselves to see. I mean, that was part of what made them so great, to see how it moved and to understand the clothes. So we didn't do it so they could see themselves. Well, you could do that if you were shooting in a studio, which I didn't shoot a lot in the studio. But, yeah, that makes sense so they can kind of see what they're doing and get an idea. Yeah. Have you seen that at all, Chris? I didn't know that was a thing that happened. like directly like they're they're looking at themselves in the mirror while they're being shot i've never i i've never seen that i'm sure there's some divas out there that demand that and they probably are the people that um don't deserve it is my guess you know is my guess on the it seems a little distracting i would yeah i would initially have a negative opinion of it but now you know i don't like when I'm getting my photo taken, I don't know how the fuck I look. And they're like telling me to move to my left. Is it your left? I don't want to know. I don't want to know how I look though. That's the thing. You're not a model. Your job, if you're a model or you're modeling something, then you're supposed to understand. Thank you for reminding me. Thank you for reminding me that Jason and I are both not models. I'm just going to remember. Not that you couldn't be. I'm not saying you couldn't be.

Thank you. Thank you for that concession. I can do some hand modeling. I just don't think that anybody... I don't know. It's more fun not to... If I was doing that job, I think it'd be more... If I, you know, trust the person I'm working with, I'm like, let's rock. Do your thing. Seems like it would be too much control and too much distraction. Well, it's also... I mean, it's fucked us up. Like, I'm on Zoom all fucking day looking at myself. I don't want to see that. I would prefer not to see myself all day. It's just not normal. Is your wife talking about models or actors? A little bit of both. A little bit of both, yeah. It feels very actory to me, especially like maybe I'm new to this, but I'm hot, so I can make some sort of demands to make myself feel more comfortable. Wheel it over. It does sound more actory. Very accurate. Fucking actors. What are we going to do? Can't live with them? Can't live without them? So the Dashwood thing is, I'll see you tonight. Yes, great. Yes, it's tonight. And then what else are you doing? Are you doing some other stuff? Is there an after party? Friday, I'm getting a Lifetime Achievement Award from Daily Front Row, which is apparently kind of cheesy, but fun. That's really fun. At the Rainbow Room. That makes it extra fun. Christy's introducing me and giving me the award, which is really sweet. And then on the 18th, I have a show opening. It's Daily Wise. So come on the 18th. I'm going to be out of town. And then I'm doing London and Paris. But I thought that's what I meant. I figured you were going to do. Where are you going? I'm actually going to this wedding, and then I'm going to Lanzerhof. Oh, I love Lanzerhof. But there's a new one in Germany. So that's where I am going. There was the original one was in Germany. And then the other one was, are you going to where the sand dunes are on the island? It's called Silt. Oh, yeah. That looks amazing. Dying to go there. So you've been, Pamela. Yeah. I've been there and I've been. You've huffed. I've huffed. It's incredible. How snatched did you feel when you left? And then I went to Viva Mare, which during the pandemic, which is in Austria. Well, I think of Austria as the place for these sort of like, I don't even know what you call them. How did you end up going to Lenserville? Because I've been trying to go for like.

five years and they finally he has body dysmorphia so it's only a matter of time they said you know what fine fine you've dealt with enough Chris are you going by yourself or are you going with your wife yeah I'm going by myself for nine days or eight days I think but I had a pre-call with the doctor yeah and the doctor was like what do you want I was like I'll literally do anything like I don't care I'm like I'll do like you want to do cell replacement I'm like sure my cells must be fucked let's do it like i'm so you're like we're gonna like test out new procedures on me i'm your guinea pig i'm your pin cushion do whatever you want i just feel like they're dealing with a lot of people that come in there with a lot of specific goals very specific needs and goals and i'm a little bit more like i'm here to have the experience, and then write about the experience. So I need to have experience. Oh, is that what you're writing about it? Is that what you're going? Yeah, I'm writing about it, yeah. Oh, that's good. I don't know any man who's been. I have one friend. My friend Jeremy has been. I don't know any other man that has been. Who are you writing about it for? GQ. That's so great. It's supposed to be beautiful. We went during the pandemic, and there was no foreigners because no foreigners were allowed to travel into Austria. We got special permission. So there was a lot of local people there who were just going because. You know, like there was this cute young guy who was like a professional swimmer or something who was just going to kind of. But the Austrians are. Definitely not fun. We'd be like, fine. We were hiking. Austrians aren't known for fun. How do I say it? They're not fun people. Yeah, do you have any tips for Chris? But I like, I mean, Helmut Lang and Portola's Austrian, and they're amazing. He makes a good pair of jeans. Yeah, do you have any tips for me? No, just have fun and take lots of movies. We watched lots of all the, I had screeners, I think, so we watched tons of movies. I'm fucked. I have to, I need to work.

And I've been told that part of the process after a couple of days is your brain is operating in a way that it normally doesn't. Like you're so clear that you're really able to like focus is what I've been told. I don't remember. It sounds like when you do like a, like a cleanse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You took what lessons? Cooking. They had a cooking class for like organic. Yeah. They, they offer that. I'm like, I don't want to do any of that. I was doing that because I was like, do I get an extra? If I make the broth, do I get anything else? You might be able to smuggle some raisins in a pocket or something like that for later. Is that an olive I found under the refrigerator? Okay, so they do restrict your diet there, Pamela? Is that true? I think you can make, you know, you can choose. I went because I'd had COVID and I was like using it as like COVID recovery, even though I wasn't that sick. Even though I was fine, I just, you know. I thought maybe I do have some long-term effects. Sure. But you can go for weight loss. You could just tell them what you want to do. I mean, there's people there that were seriously sick. You could tell there are people that were recovering. right from like chemo there was people that had like some serious disorders yeah i'm not getting i just want to be clear to you and our audience i'm not getting a facelift i'm not going to kind of recuperate from anything this is straight up there's you don't you don't have a terminal illness that you've created in your own mind either except for the dysmorphia except for the dysmorphia but i think that's a yeah i guess when i talked to the doctor she also wanted to make it very clear to me that it was like You can go like smoke a cigarette. You can go like into, you can do whatever you want. This isn't rehab. You know what I mean? This isn't a halfway house. We're not going to cattle prod you if you leave. Yeah. This one, this one English woman was telling me that, or that one of the doctors was telling me this woman, you're not supposed to have coffee. But they would go into town every day to have, like, coffee and a glass of wine. But that's me. I'm definitely having coffee. Which I didn't want to do because I'm like, I just want to have this experience and see how I can, you know. Might as well do it the right way. And I went with my husband, with Jamie, so that was fun because I don't know if I wanted to be there alone.

And it snowed. It was so beautiful. It was really beautiful. Yeah, I was like, what's the weather like? And they're like, well, it's a microclimate, so bring a jacket and shorts. And I was like, you guys, just fuck the fuck off. Give me an answer to the fucking question. I'm so jealous that you're doing that, though. Wow, it looks beautiful, that place. It really does look nice. Look, there'll be a full report. Okay, good. Can you give us an honest report and then do your GQ article on the side? That's right. Thank you, Pam, for joining us. That'll be a long lunch at Petey. He'll give you the lunch. I can finally have some spinach with salt on it at Bar Pity. Oh, my God. I'll be flying. All right. The 90s is out now. The book is out now. Yes. And I'll see you tonight at Dashwood. And thank you for the time. Thanks. Thank you, guys. Pleasure. Thank you. It was an honor. Pleasure. Thank you.