309. - Sean Thor Conroe

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcasts. or watch on YouTube. You just sent that text to the... Fuck! God damn it. It's not that bad. It's not that bad. It could be much worse. I didn't mean to. No, I've got to do some damage control. I wasn't trying to call you out. How long gone? Jason sent a text meant for his LP to the group chat, and because I'm obviously kind of elevated kind of guy, evolved, if you will, I'm not going to clown you for that because I... appreciate uh you know a great communicator like yourself and i feel like you're taking strides to become a little bit of a communicator yourself am i wrong chris that's right i love communicating that's why i do this podcast with you three times a week that's not really communication though you know what i mean i do know where i don't want i want to move beyond surface level communication okay well so that way the people who love you will be able to understand you more anyways I'm sending a text to my loved one, my intimate life partner, and I sent it to the group chat with the fellas. It could have been tough. It wasn't a picture of my titties or nothing. Thank God. It was just me saying, hey, I made a little bit of a mess and I don't have time to tie it up. How does TJ make a mess? What are you doing? It's not so much a mess, but I came home, ran a couple errands. There's just little things that I need to...

tidy up like my ipod case is here and then there's like a bag of something here and i didn't put the bananas away and like you know like my maybe my gym bags on the floor i didn't know if you i didn't think crazy if you made like a margot style mess you know what i mean on the floor maybe i tore up one of the pillow cushions pretty bad i didn't know if it was more of like a thing where you maybe maybe you missed the pad when you were using the restroom. But it sounds like you're good to go, so I'm glad I checked. I just want to make sure. Knock on wood. I'm back in L.A. I feel like absolute shit. I feel like I got hit by a truck. I don't know why. I don't know why. Maybe it's the time difference. Maybe it's the time in the air, thanks to our friends at Delta One. You fly literally across the country. What time did you wake up this morning? 4 a.m. Okay, yeah. So you woke up at 4 a.m., went to the airport, and flew across the country. I don't care how much Laird's Superfood you're eating, you're going to feel a little bad. That's true. So, yeah, I'm back in this bitch, though, and I got some new pair of shoes I ordered came. Oh, great. Okay, what are we working with? You got the Balenses? The navy blue suede Belgians. Oh. Thanks to a friend of the show, Jacob Gallagher, actually. He saw them on eBay and sent me the link, and I copped immediately. Wow, that's nice. They were a little more expensive than they should have been, but I realize now that it's because they're brand new. Oh, new without box. for my ebay community without box but it did come with the dust cover to make it official the real real dust cover or was it the oh no it's the belgian it's the belgian no the the real real dust cover is merely a trash bag when it touches my doorstep you know what i mean come on bro the try the the the dust bag comes in handy for some things no that thing doesn't even feel like that thing is not sustainable it's really it kind of goes against their message who has the best dust bag in the game ermies chanel what is it

No, I mean, they're all the same. That's not true. That's not true. Not every dust bag. And you're better than that. If I ask my girlfriend, if I ask my chick, are all dust bags built the same, she would say, ha ha. No, the Prada one is like a silky from what I've seen, so that's nice. I like a thick and substantial one. A dust bag I can pass down to my grandkids. And for listeners at home who don't know what we're talking about, it's a little kind of canvas sack. that your items usually shoes will come in or a handbag a handbag as well special items that i'm assuming that all of our listeners uh if they're well male or female do have at least one chanel bag in the collection either handed down from grandma or purchased directly from One of your local Chanel boutiques, or even the RealReal, I guess, if you're poor. We could have some listeners who are, you know, up in Rikers. That's a good point. Yeah, we have a big point. Anna Delvey could be listening. Well, Anna Delvey definitely knows what a dust bag is. I, of course, have a Chanel. Well, I felt bad when I got back from New York, NYC, just like you. And, you know, as you know, after a couple days, once you get back on schedule. But I have been waking up. wicked early every morning this week and it's something that is becoming a problem i'm gonna have to do an afternoon eastern rare occasion for me but i have to get the i have to get a i have to get a sweat in now that i'm back on the treadmill and and be able to run i've got a new lease on life jason god yeah i mean that's why i'm feeling a little is i was i was pushing it on on the kettlebells today and every time i work out like that where it's like high It's like a strength training, but also the heart rate is up, you know? It's not just one or the other. That's when I'm like, oh, man, I should stop smoking cigs. Yeah, you should try Barry's Boot Camp. Oh, I've tried. That's why I never went back. It's kind of the same thing. No, no, I mean. Once you're doing that thing, once you're running five miles, you know, doing your first 5K, whatever it is, you're like, I should.

probably stop blank. And a lot of times it's smoking, it's drinking, it's whatever. I should stop gaming. Eating. Yeah, whatever it might be. You know what I mean? It just depends. The problem is I've always felt that in certain situations, fitness journeys through my life over the years. Of course. But I also like smoking so much that I'm not ready to really give up on it. So I always come up with little tricks. and ideas to try out and i did come up with a new one i want to run it by you please yeah please because yeah because i have a theory with you that you're never going to quit smoking ever but continue yeah you're right about that but that i mean that's the problem is i really do like it a lot like it's something i love and i don't want to stop it but i also know that It's not good for me, obviously, and my loved ones probably would like me to do it less. Do you consider your dentist to be a loved one? Because that's more of like a doctor. But I guess if you're short on loved ones. They show love. I guess if you're short on loved ones. Okay, here's my basic idea where I'm starting off. The only rule is... I'm not allowed to smoke alone. Okay. Yeah, that's probably – I mean, but I don't – I mean, are you smoking a couple cigs a day alone on like a regular day? Yeah, I would say so. I would say like once I'm done with all my work, if I'm not going out, I'm not like hitting horses for a couple Hendrix teenies. I'm just chilling at home after I finish all my work for the day, eat some din-din. If it's a nice night out, I definitely love having a little – little sig at the end of the day to kind of play my angry birds put a listen to all the stories on pocket on my pocket app that i i'm unable to read you know all the economist stories and things like that shout out to those guys for their new cover looks great they put blood on it it's fucking lit the question is jason does it count so let's say let's say maybe i stand with you But I don't have a cigarette. Like in solidarity or physically, literally? No, I will stand with you, Outlet. We're together. My guest doesn't have to also be smoking. You just need a guest. I just need a guest. So it's in the situation where, number one, we're living in our work-from-home bubble, silos. So one, if I really do like smoking this much, that means I have to make plans to go out into the world and hang out with people. So that's a win.

But number two, it's like the only time I'm smoking alone, you know, I say that it's because I'm, you know, bookending the end of a beautiful hard work day. But it's probably because TJ needs a second. It's because of stress and anxiety, which is why you go out and blast a cig alone. You know, that's just what it is. But cigarettes don't do that. I don't understand that. Like drugs do that because they're chemically. created to do that i don't want to i hate to break it to you but nicotine is a drug no bro no and some people get addicted to it i've heard that i have heard that that it's the number one killer in america after heart disease but you know good to know i i think this is a pretty good rule that you could easily adhere to i think it's i think it's good i think because it's nice to have a little little social sig at the end of the day but also it'll definitely curb a lot of the sigs because There's a lot of times where I smoke and I'm alone, and it's just kind of like, what am I really doing here? I'm just looking on my Instagram, having a cig. Sounds pretty nice. I mean, yeah, it is nice. It is nice. But it's a very fleeting action, and as soon as it's done, you're like, well, I did that, and now my hands smell like shit, my clothes smell like shit, blah, blah, blah. Well, I like the smell. I like the smell. Well, yeah, yeah. I like the smell, too, but... It's a fine line. Not the smell of a night in the club in your hair, but like a single Sig Outdoors. My Tom Ford leather ombre mixing with the tobacco from my American spirit. They swim and they dance together like a braised pork chop and a fine grunet. You know what time it is. I don't actually know what time it is. Well, I know that we have a guest today. That's what fucking time it is. Sean Thor. Uh, you guys may know him as the, the author of the, uh, much talked about fuck boy, but I think, I think Sean is in New York. I'm very interested to hear, uh, about his approach to basketball, drug use writing. Yeah. I mean, you know, he, he went, he went to college. He went to Swarthmore on a, on a basketball scholarship. Your fave could never, I don't think he finished, but.

No one does. No one on this podcast finishes college at LE. But I also really want to get into the spelling of fuckboy. Yeah, and that brings up a subject that I'm curious to talk to him about, about the shelf life of words. It's kind of a fun gamble to see which ones will become evergreen and stand the test of time and which ones will... not age well very true no no very true and we'll see how fuck boy ages oh yes we will jason let's uh let's give let's give sean t conroe a zeal this episode of how long gone is brought to you by a new podcast from the guardian stateside with kai and carter this is covering a lot of our bases jason it's a it's trying to slow down The news and wrestle with the questions we all have about what's happening in the world. And I know you particularly have quite a lot of questions. A lot of questions. But how often? Because we do this podcast three times a week and that's a sweet spot. How many times do they do? Three times a week. And I have a feeling just based on the platform and these talking points that they're maybe going to be covering different stuff than we do. That's just a guess. The Guardian is not some billionaire owned. They're not afraid to say what they want to say, brother. Yeah, Rupert ain't sniffing around in what journalists Kai Wright and Carter Sherman are up to over there at Stateside. But yeah, listen wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it on YouTube. It's three times a week. And who couldn't use more news? Especially when it's not from here, let's say. Give it a listen. Give it a listen. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung, TaskRabbit. You need a fucking something put together, a cabinet. Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf. TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you.

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That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. Are you, hold on, are you, you might be the first guest you've ever had that smoked weed live on How Long Gone. I'm not smoking weed, bro. I'm not smoking weed. What are you smoking? Just tobacco. That's sick. You know how fucking bad I wish I could smoke cigarettes while I record this podcast? Jesus Christ. And it's funny because I was just talking about smoking on the intro of this episode, and I was trying to come up with different ways where I can not quit smoking but curtail it a bit. And my theory was never smoke alone, only in a social setting. How do you feel about that, Sean? I mean. As a guy who is smoking alone in his bedroom, how do you feel about that, Sean? That's a good rule, I feel like. That's cute for you is what you're saying? Yeah, that's cute. That's what's up. It's very cute for you. I think it's a good start. I just don't know how long it'll last. Like a lot of rules we give ourselves. It seems reasonable, but the shelf life is short, I feel like. But we never give up trying. No, we don't. Sean, where are you? Are you in New York? Yeah, I'm in South Brooklyn. Is that where you live now? Yeah. I feel like you've done some stints all over town. Yeah. Why you got to say it like a jail thing? No, I'm not saying he went upstate. I just mean like I, I feel like you've read, I feel like you've just lived in all kinds of different places all over the city. For sure. No, well, yeah, I was up in, I was up in like Harlem on like 130 in Lenox for two years. Okay, Jim Jones. And I was there for the whole like. And then everything. And then I moved out here earlier this year. Moving on up. Do you prefer it? Or was it time to move? Or was it just like, I want something. I need something different. He got the bag, bro. What are you talking about? Oh, he got the bag. That's right. I'm sorry. He did get the bag. So you decided not to go to Union Square, but just South Brooklyn. Yeah, I was thinking about leaving the city. But then I wanted to be close in case I needed to come in.

I just kept looking further and further south, but I stopped. I was like, yeah. It's different out here. It's super quiet. Have you ever lived in downtown Manhattan? Do you have any interest in that, or is that too much for you? No, I haven't lived down there. I go in when I want to. It's nice to have that option. When you go in, do you ride the bicycle, or are we taking the Uber XL? No, no. I hit that local train, you know? Okay. But you are a cycle man, right? I see the chain in the back. Oh, yeah. And it ain't a Rockefeller one. No. Yeah, I haven't. I actually haven't been biking. Yeah, I haven't been biking that much lately. I need to start biking again. Look, when I started getting my money up, I kind of stopped riding the bike as well, Sean, so I can relate, fam. Thanks, Shane. Thanks, Shane. Because before, riding your bike around the city, it's a very low self-esteem activity where you're like, if I get hit by a bus, what's the big fucking deal? You know what I mean? I'm a piece of shit anyways. But then once you got some M's in the Zelle, then you're like, I'm too clean to ride a bike in the street. You kidding me? Yeah. You don't want to get mud. You don't want to get like mud on the wave. You know what I mean? You don't want any like, you know, because biking can be dirty. Jason's right. There's a lot of people who depend on you now, Sean. You know what I mean? Exactly. Not just not just family and friends, but, you know, PR chicks, shit like that. You know what I'm saying? So you guys read the book or what? You all just read about, you know, people talking about my damn personal business. Wait, you wrote a book? I didn't even realize. I thought. I thought you did jujitsu. So you are. No, I'm just playing. I'm just playing. I'm halfway through the book right now. I'm halfway through the book. Oh, hell yeah. What a journey it has been, I must say. Every chapter, a new twist and turn. The main protagonist.

Maybe there are some similarities between you and him. Some small similarities between you and him. But there are similarities between him and I. Yeah. Podcaster. Oh, yeah. Listens to podcasts and records podcasts. Oh, yeah. You know, made some bands off SoundCloud. You know what I'm saying? Enjoys a fixed gear lifestyle. I didn't make any bands off SoundCloud. I was doing remixes of the XX, and you were doing some Lil B-style rapping, but we're still... Yeah, you guys have a pretty eclectic guest list. Yeah, man. I was going through. It was pretty tight. Good. Sorry, Jason. I thought you were about to tell him you were suing him for intellectual property, but you're saying there's enough differences between... I just think it's funny that... Oh, shit. Yeah. So does that mean... So the character, when I was reading the book, I was like, oh, he's listening to podcasts. You know, I clock that. And then later on, he would record podcasts with his squad, with his bros, and then maybe or maybe not release them into the world. I don't know why. Is that something that you've done yourself in real life? Podcasting? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I fell off a little bit. I haven't put out anything for a minute. But yeah, since like 2017, I was going in ripping pods. But not like you guys. I don't have that. I don't have the ads, the consistency. I was listening to you guys' pause. You guys have this energy, this pace. My pause, I got mad long silences and shit. There's nothing wrong. I listen to a lot of podcasts that have mad long silences. If you want to build offline, I'm happy to take a pass. I can be your editor. That's the thing, though. I think that anything you're listening to is probably edited pretty well, so you think it's moving a little faster than it is. You know what I'm saying? For sure. But even if we weren't editing, we do have a cadence that's kind of moving a lot more quickly than some mumble rap pods. I'm not talking about you specifically, but there's a lot of shows where it's like, yeah. I just think it's funny that...

2017 is, like, relatively early, though. Well, I first started doing a pod in, like, 2014 when I was trying to, like, walk across country. Like, I was, like, ripping pods every day. No, I would rip a recording, a 10-minute recording of everything happening every day. And then I would stop at a McDonald's, and I had my laptop, but I had a flip phone. And then I would put them all into a garage band for an hour, and then I would bomb it out like that. And then there was conversations I was recording with people, like, and I had the voice recorder in my pocket. Then later I was like, I don't think I was, because I was, I don't know. I didn't. Yeah. So I took them all down. Some pretty wild recordings, honestly. I mean, I could only imagine. I was just going to say on paper, that idea of like, I'm going to walk across the country. I'm going to record a 10 minute podcast every day. I'm going to interview strangers that I come across that are interesting. Edit in GarageBand at a fucking McDonald's and upload that shit all the time. What an undertaking. I think that that concept is cool. That concept is insane. If you want to do that, we can talk offline. I can probably get a budget together. Make sure you have a bunch of Snowpeak and Arcteryx gear for your backpacking. Get you sponsored by Hoka, you know what I mean? So you got some nice comfortable shoes for those works. Some outerwear, yeah, exactly. Some outerwear, anywhere. We'll set up the Snowpeak stove. You'll be boiling beans. We don't need to go to McDonald's. Yeah, exactly. My friend has a drone. He'll film the whole thing. It's going to be lit. You can reenact it. Where did you start the walk, and how far did you get? I started in Philly. I'd want to leave too. Yeah, I left on March 13th, but I hit a little bit, and then I walked until June. I made it to La Junta, Colorado, which is just shy of Pueblo. That's pretty fucking far. I mean, that's more than halfway. Yeah, it was gnarly. How many miles do you do a day when you're doing that? I'm sure the beginning is different than at the end. The beginning was like 10, 13 miles some days. But by the end, after Pennsylvania, I switched to a... I actually ran into it. I know it's all kind of cringe and basic that I was trying to do this, but whatever. No, it's not. Because in Cumberland, Maryland, I got hit with a storm and stayed in this budget inn. And I ran into a dude who was trying to walk across also.

And he tried to walk across with his friend, this girl, who convinced him to do it, and she bailed like three days in. So this dude was all by himself. So you're at the lobby bar at the La Quinta, and he's like, what are you doing here? He's like, I'm walking across the country. Are you fucking kidding me? I go down for a cig. I'm like, what are you doing, bro? And he's like, dude, get this. I was like, I have two. And we walked, and this dude had a damn cart. He had a push cart. He's got like a sick ass little wagon. Athletic one. Athletic one. Yeah. Like a swim. Yeah. And then I saw after Pennsylvania, I copped a cart. And then by the time I was in like Kansas and like Missouri, it was just straight. I was like, I think I was consistently doing 30 miles a day, which is like three miles an hour. Wow. For 10 hours. Shit. The highest day was 33 to get across Indianapolis because I try to get across and I was like, I'm going to camp on the far side. And then like the outskirts of every city just get really. like hurt you know what i mean like hard hard to sleep outside yeah yeah yeah yeah that's very impressive it was kind of gnarly it was kind of gnarly honestly i'm very impressed but how did your body feel were you just depleted every day like so fucked well the thing was like i've always kind of had like i don't know like autoimmune shit sort of like skin and stuff and that time was like the best health i was in yeah yeah you know what i mean because just getting sun and like but it got gnarly on the far side like through um southwestern kansas by like dodge city like west of dodge city is just where like a lot of like like the tyson meat headquarters are and stuff okay so it was just like there's these semis with these slits in it you know like they kept coming by and i just kept getting sprayed out by stuff you know and it was like it was straight up like i was straight up like and then when the bugs started coming it was getting hot and like it was just piss and shit it was cow piss and shit yeah so hold on all right so hold on you're so you're what you got a cart you got some stuff in the cart but you're saying this is 2014 so you had like a flip phone so you're i had a damn flip phone bro so are you listening so you're not even listening to music or anything no but i had an ipod classic 80 gig

And speaking of podcasts, I was listening to like early Marin. Damn. So I'd go to the McDonald's, download some damn onto my iTunes. And then halfway through, only one ear started working. So I'm over here with a single ear. Although it's kind of sketchy to walk on the highway with a headphone. Smart. Because semis are fucking barreling past. Obviously, you have a great sense of direction. I feel that about you. But how are you? I had a paper atlas. You had the atlas, like the classic McNally. Exactly. Wow. But honestly, there's not much navigation. In the beginning, I was planning it out. I was like, I'm about to walk through. through the woods you know what i mean yeah but then if you get caught and you you get you get caught away from access to food and water you're fucked you know so like it was basically 40 yeah yeah u.s 40 you can't walk on interstate because u.s [redacted address] louis and then I did walk on some country roads to Missouri. That was kind of gnarly. That's all they have there, I think. So that makes sense. Yeah. And then it was 50. It was just US 50 through like Kansas and stuff like that. All right. So when you, when you're in, when you're in Colorado and you decide to call it, is this like a tough decision to make? Or are you like, I'm fucking done. I feel insane. I was, I was out of money too. I only, I only had like 1200 when I left. i swear to god so you made 1200 stretch from march to june yeah but then like that's impressive this dude like wichita i stayed with these people and then they like gave me money and stuff and then when i got to damn garden city kansas i got blasted by the storm and like i burned all my money on this one motel room for like four days what'd you have to do for that little money yeah that's my question how'd you get that why did they just give you no they gave me like 200 bucks Oh, okay. They were worried about me. We don't want you to die. You didn't have to break off any head or nothing. You didn't have to try on some special outfits or nothing like that? Yeah, that might have been a way to stretch it out. I know, I should have thought about that. There's some freaks in Wichita. You know that, Jason. Good people. Those are good people. Good Americans. Some good Americans down there. Good Americans down in Wichita.

Praise them. So your body was actually doing better. Your skin is good. Your autoimmune disorder. My feet were fucked for the first month. So like feet, maybe the knees and shit were... I was walking in flip-flops too. What? Why the fuck were you wearing flip-flops? Bro, your ass was chafed the motherfucker, bro. No, no, no. Because if you're not showering and you wear socks... your feet will get super gnarly. So if you're aired out all the time, and you're sleeping in a tiny tent, if you're aired out all the time. So you did some, I'm about to walk across America, Google searches, and you got a little info here and there, or is this just off the dome? Yeah, I just got, I just seen someone do it. I was like, I'm about to, I'm about to one up this, dude. It's not that original, dude. Mad people try to do that. I know, but I just, but it's pretty crazy. I feel like it's a lot, it's too much time alone. I feel like the introspection would become defeating at a certain point. Like, honestly, it makes you kind of wig out. Well, I feel like there's moments of insane clarity that you gain from it, and then, like, extreme lows. I mean, it's just like anything else, but it's so... physically taxing yeah that that it it kind of swings both ways you know what i mean yeah well like one thing is you get or i would have like sleep issues but i know i wouldn't have sleep issues when i was walking because you find a spot to crash out like you're so grateful that you have a spot that you just kind of like yeah you just relax like you just like crash literally you know what i mean so like i was sleeping like hard on the ground you know like every night were you writing at the time or is this just like a vision quest yeah i wasn't really writing i wrote like i wrote about it and stuff but it's just kind of i don't know bro it's like yeah you like can't not lapse into that tone when you're writing about some shit like that you know like yo i'm out here like in america bro like yeah no for sure no i know what you mean i was like oh i'm self-aware that this is dumb but like i'm doing it anyway and then i was it's just it was just too much were you smoking weed out there no one night one night some dude

Yeah, throughout the time, I met two people that were also walking across. But one dude was that dude I told you about who was this dude from Iowa who was, like, on a mission. And he, like, was ready. This other dude was just kind of, like, he was, like, homeless already. I ran into both of them a second time. And it was crazy. But one night with the second dude, someone gave us some weed. And then we, like, were walking together. And then we, like, crashed out. It was, like, by the highway. The trees were all creaking. and it was like a swamp and then we we smoked some weed that night and it was terrible like it was so scary bro some swamp weed no but it was just like if you're if you get stoned suddenly and you're like by a highway like like i thought the trees were gonna fall on me okay and i was like and then i was like what the am i doing you know like it's a bad environment it's a bad environment but no i was just smoking cigs and uh drinking five-hour energies Damn, bro. So do you do a lot of stimulants? still no i just drink coffee and i tobacco yeah you're not railing addies no hell no like the good old days no no that's no and even like sugar i don't really fuck with sugar well good good for you you do have an athletic background so i didn't know if you you know that that's why i feel like you were better prepared to walk across the country than other people yeah yeah you are built different but but speaking of stimulants speaking of stimulants i noticed in the book you did a few turns of phrase where you would sort of pair words together that were the same words, but in different conjugations, I guess. I noticed you said stimulating stimulants and intersecting intersection. I think there might be a couple more cases like that. It just struck out to me because sometimes when I, I mean, I've never written a book, but I've written some things here and there, maybe just the morning pages. It reminded me of something that I might do where it's like, oh, that's kind of fun. I'll put that in. Yeah, that's just getting too lished out. Lished out with the syntax. Lished out with the syntax. I like that. You ever read Sam Lipsite? You guys ever read Sam Lipsite? No. No, no. Oh, damn. I'll add it to my list right now. He's like a...

like a Lish understudy, Gordon Lish understudy too. Okay. But his, every bar is like a bar. Like there's something going on, like, you know, like with repetition. You mean every, every, every sentence is, is, is considered. Every sentence got some, got some kind of cookie turns. Do you think there's a certain point where there's too much of that? For sure. Like you have to definitely pump the brakes on that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You don't want to go too OD with that. Cause then you're. You start sounding a little Dr. Susie, you know? I don't know. Dr. Susie did pretty good for himself, so maybe he could be on. But you're going to be, your fan base is going to be five and under. It's limiting. It's limiting. And you called a sentence a bar because you do kind of have a hip-hoppy background, but you also are, you know, you seem to be literarily knowledgeable. Are there any other people that come to mind that kind of fit in this zone who can kind of do both of these things well? Besides J. Cole? No, I can't, bro. The problem is all the examples you could think of are dorky. Yeah. So maybe you're not the first person to do this, but you're the first person to do it and be cool. I was going to say Lil B wrote a book, but I think it was a children's book. Yeah. No, I mean, no, literally you and Lil B are probably it. You know that dude? Gabriel Krause. Y'all heard of that dude? No. He's like this English, British writer who he only his first books out. His first books out like this past year is called like who they was. He's he was on some like London like gang shit like early in his life. Okay. It's like always like it sounds like. like British drill slang. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like hard to understand for a lady. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to understand. Yeah. Men, men have hard time comprehending. Yeah, exactly. Men. Yeah. Men. That kind of makes me feel old. I mean, it's cool to see, but it makes me feel old where like somebody could have this sort of like, you know, slang that you associate with like teenage life, early twenties, you know?

Gang shit and then be able to achieve a certain level where you're like, oh, you're like a storied, well-educated writer who has like a real. powerful adult voice right i think it's a beautiful thing to see but i'm also like damn i'm getting old now i think there's more of a space though for writing like this in general now because of the way we talk like it's just changed the way the way people talk in general and i think that that's yeah a lot to do with hip-hop and it's effect it's like influence on america but it's also like texting right you know like that's how that's how we actually talk to each other so much now yeah so like slang and short form and like run-on sentences all that stuff is is part of everyone's life now yeah um so it's like i think that every and there's only been a handful of books like this where like the style of writing is such a big part of the narrative right you know it's like it's almost it's almost that comes before the story if you're reading about it people want to try to explain it and it's like bro it's just how we talk right kind of you know what i mean like it's it's not sexy to explain it that way but that's kind of what it is yeah i mean i think if it's all that it's not i mean people are getting super tripped out about my because there's just a lot of like contradictions in my whatever how people are presenting my book or my bio or whatever but like i think but you know like that aspect of updating literature to the current like vernacular is also like through um all time like i remember uh actually gian um gian's like yeah my former publisher passed away last year yeah but he had me reading like um in our time like that first hemingway book and like i didn't you don't realize it now because you just see him talking but the way he would just do dialogue and stuff was super like not supposed to be in literature like that like i remember i heard this lecture about it and they um this dude like edmund wilson or something i think it was edmund wilson who was one of the first people who put him on was a critic had this whole list of like

different slangs for that like hemingway and all these dudes were using of like of getting drunk yeah yeah a whole list of getting drunk and it was a lot of them were the same like lit like lit like a lit like an out house like all kinds of it was like a whole list of things like lit like a big bit yeah like a big like i was like whoa i was like damn dude i don't know is that yeah so And then even, like, I don't know, you know, I've seen you guys had Nico on, Nico Walker. Yeah, yeah. He put me on in this book, this dude, James Kelman, who's a Scottish writer. Like, I guess he won the Booker Prize. And, like, he's kind of not read because the book I got was, like, out of print. But he had this book of disaffection. But he's from Glasgow. Like, and the whole book is written in this, like, glass weed. And he writes, like, for, like, didn't, like, didn't he? Like D-I-D-N-I with no apostrophes. And you start hearing, also, because I actually lived in Scotland when I was little, but you start listening to it, you start reading it in the Scottish accent, which is kind of tight, you know? Yeah, no, that's pretty powerful to be able to do that, to get people to read it in an accent that's not theirs, you know what I mean, in their own mind. Well, that's, I mean, halfway through your book, and that's what I'm doing. I mean, I've never heard you talk before a half an hour ago, but I was like, i'm reading it in that voice and at first you're like what the fuck is happening here and then after once you kind of let it you know settle in because it can be a little jarring at first yeah um to some people yeah but i was like okay i mean i understand all these words i've typed the word bae many times in my life so i still use it i still use it to this day which is way too late but but now it's like it helps you understand exactly who this guy is because everyone knows a guy just like this somewhere they usually live somewhere around san francisco or something and You know, it's like a certain, like I know I'm picturing this amalgamation of 10 people I've met in my life over the years, whatever, you know, a guy painting graffiti or a guy delivering weed or a guy doing whatever. And they're like a little smarter than they should be. And they're onto something and they're getting laid even though they're homeless. And you're like, what the fuck is going on with this guy? And like that.

Those words and that voice helps it. Yeah, there's an archetype like that. Especially when you're younger, when you're in your early 20s, there's always that guy that's like, what the fuck? How does this guy not in jail? How does this guy who sleeps in his car just take my bitch? What the fuck is going on? He didn't even have to try that hard. He just walked right up. Fuck that guy, bro. I was thinking about this when I was in the sauna at the gym an hour ago. Nice. Nice. No cold plunge, cold shower though. What exactly does, what's the difference between a fuck boy and a dirt bag, just like a regular old dirt bag kind of guy? Yeah. I think that it's a little bit like what you guys are saying though, where it's like he's a little bit more advanced than he should be. I think he's... not aware of his downsides or he chooses not to look at his downsides or something like where a dirtbag is aware like I am a dirtbag I know I'm a dirtbag this is me and a fuckboy is kind of like I'm fucking swagging bitch sick as hell there's nothing I work at Foot Locker and there's nothing wrong with me but it also works that like hype beast aspect of a fuckboy was like cares about his shoes and stuff you know i mean that used to but that used to be what the word meant exclusively like that's like what it meant it was basically a bad streetwear guy yeah and then i feel like i feel like then women started using it to describe guys that like weren't nice exactly exactly or guys that just were like a you ain't shit type of guy exactly yeah yeah yeah but i mean even before the hype beast stuff like that like that's just like yo like fuck boy like you you know like just like in the hood it's like you're a bitch you know like stop you know like i feel like the hypey stuff was probably like asap rocky times you know what i mean like early asap like a pretty boy you know like um or not pretty but like wearing like thinking about his attire or his presentation like more than a little too much a little too much yeah and then and then around like 2015-16 like it was just like women i won't say what

I feel like there's a correlation between the rise of online dating and the term fuckboy becoming part of the vernacular. I feel like it's particularly applied to a tender swindler type guy. That's kind of the vibe. I've never done anything like that, but I'm interested in... what that's doing to the culture, like our online dating. I mean, I mean, that's, that makes three of us, but I think it's more of like a, I think it's just kind of like it, it, it allows it. I mean, it's just like everything else a lot. It allows people to behave in a way that like there's less consequences for, you know, or at least seemingly less. So that's for 10 years. You know, I mean, you look at a comment section and you, you, you know, you got a bunch of reviews. It's like, if you're a writer in 2022 and you're like, don't use your real name. Get the fuck out of here, bro. You're not on my level, bro. I don't know. That's how I feel. I agree. You're a YouTube comment. That's how I feel. That's how I feel. I think that's reasonable. This is something we've had to learn with this show, or at least me in particular. You just really cannot read that shit. You just cannot look at it. You have to fully check out. You guys have people coming at you all crazy. Of course. Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean, but it's just like, I don't like it's, it's, it's gotten easier though for me to be like, I'm just not going to ever go on Reddit again. Like if I need to find something out, if I need like, if I need to know how, you know, this, this car part works, I'll ask Jason to look on Reddit for me. Because I can't go, so he's got to go look. You know what I mean? If he has trouble with his printer driver and there's a perfect thread on Reddit about it, I'm going to have to go in because it could be someone being like, Chris Black says some shit. He's going to screenshot it and send it to me. But no, I think that it's a weird lesson to learn. I think it's different because we put this thing out three times a week and it's pretty quick. But I think a book in a lot of ways is like...

that's like life's work shit you know what i mean like this is like this is this is very serious in a different way right whether whether the subject matter is serious or not it's the work that goes into it is you know and i so i think it like to me that would be even more difficult i already want to be looking at the internet less so i've been getting better that too i mean just when shit it's disrespectful though when shit's falling around my following around my press and i'm like bro like this is like like slanderous youtube comments falling around like three years of my life and, like, my life being, like, pretty different now, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's the thing. That's the thing. Gian, like, convinced me. Like, Gian was like, we got to put this out. Like, I wasn't even, this was like, I wasn't even trying to bomb it out in, like, a major way. It was a tyrant book, like, it was supposed to, or it was initially, like, that's a much smaller, like, niche. So it's like, you want to read the book? Like, that's fine, bro. Like, tip it in price point. I'm all about it, dude. No, I mean, that's the thing. To me, it's like, if you, I mean, I might make a joke on Twitter about something, but if something doesn't interest me, I just don't buy it or I don't consume it, and it's fine. I'm going to make fun of fucking Pete Davidson, but it's not like it didn't affect the bottom line for Pete Davidson. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter. It doesn't actually matter. The book being a success with books, too, is different because the money is kind of given before they're taking a bet. Basically, they're like, we think this is X. This is worth X amount and we're going to try to sell it, you know, and it's a it's a little bit different of a gamble than than some other things. Yeah. Monetarily. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, to me, like a major publisher taking this book and bring it to market is just a testament to where we are in the world as well. Like I like they believe that this this person exists, like this reader is out there, you know.

And like, I think that, I think they're right. I mean, that's, you know, that's why we're talking about it. Yeah. It's also, it's also like, I understand like the people, like it is crazy. It's crazy. I was like, are you fucking serious? Like you guys want to publish this book? Like, you know what I mean? Like it is crazy. It is crazy. And I understand. And it's like, I don't know. Like I went on a damn radio show thing. He, he, he fucked up the book a lot and he was like doing this fifties and he was just like, You couldn't even say the title of the book. He was spelling it out. We were saying it with a French accent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fouc-bois. Fouc-bois. Yeah, yeah. So it is a little bit wild. Yeah, it must be cool to see a 50-year-old French guy being like, yo, I fuck with the Vision fan. This book is fucking playing. Yo, bro, I could not put this shit down, bro. Well, I mean, I think because you were saying like the, Chris, you were saying like the publisher believes like this person. There's enough of these people out there in the world where they'll want to read this and be like, I associate with this. I see myself in this character. And I relate to that, and that's really powerful. But I think even more so, there are more people who buy and read books who are very fascinated with this type of person. And they are not this person at all, but there's something kind of cheeky and fun about reading about it in a book versus like, oh, did you see this? hulu documentary about blah blah everyone else did but you're learning about something in this book where it's like it's a book i'm just going to sit at a coffee shop and read a book right like it's a normal thing but what is what what's inside of it you're telling a story of someone that's there that's very fascinating but they'll they wouldn't really have any access to directly and right there's just something always fascinating about a character like this for sure this is like yeah fun fun and cheeky like more of that literature you know i mean well that's the that's the other thing i think people i think we as a society now with books music any tv movies we like over intellectualize things to a point where it's like not fun anymore yeah it's like hey maybe this is just like a fun thing to read and yeah exactly exactly it's not like maybe it doesn't mean you know it it doesn't have to mean more than that if you don't want it to you know what i'm saying well yeah a lot of people will do like this is an intellectual book

And sometimes it's fun. And I think it's much more successful to or effective to be like, here's a book that's fun and entertaining. And every once in a while, you know, I'll sneak in some intellectual poetic thoughts, you know, that are a little bit more complex. Right. I mean, yeah. But it's also like it says something about the culture where like just because you're using certain slangs, there's like this assumption that like I just ripped it like. one time like without thinking about anything and then like didn't fucking make the bars like like i work you know like everything it's like book but it's because no but it's also like there's a reason why it's so it's propulsive like and and there's this there's like there's this like discondescension towards like people people will most people will look at this and and not realize or understand how considered and structured it is because of the style of writing yeah someone said someone said to me like oh like this is this is actually really like one of them like oh it's actually really good because like it makes like poor people sound smart i was just like yo that's like that's like gnarly bro like that's like what that's what No, but I can only imagine that you've heard some wild shit in response. Because I think that if people don't, the way that people would respond to this, if they don't kind of understand the nuance of it, would be pretty wild. Like, pretty wild. But that makes it exciting to me, because if it was only released on Tyrant, and it was only in this little, you know, alt-lit, smart guy, jack-off bubble... then everyone would be analyzing it with one way and be like, it's actually really, you know, blah, blah, blah. But when it gets sprayed out to everyone, you get to hear some, well, like on the good side, you're going to have people who would have never, ever read this and be like, yo, I read this and like, I like books now. I love this book. You know, you could change their life. And then conversely, you're going to get people who are like, have a wild off take like that. Exactly. But then other people can see those off takes and start thinking about stuff.

And then also most people, most people are like, yo, like I haven't read a book. Like I literally haven't read a book. I have people hit me up. I literally haven't read a book since college, bro. You know, like in 10 years, that's tight as hell when people, I mean, that's incredible. That's like the best possible response. You know what I mean? It's like, that's most people though, bro. That's most. Yeah. But that's how you, I mean, that's how you get that, that advance with more zeros than other people. Because I mean, every, like if, Everyone has a friend who's like, yeah, I buy 30 books a year, I read two a month, and I'm a book lover, blah, blah, blah. But if you can turn somebody who has never even considered reading a book in the last decade to be like, you know what, I'm going to go to Barnes & Noble and buy this shit, that's worth cutting the check for. Yeah. Totally. And it's not to say also having a generous energy with the reader is something. Maybe as I go on, I won't be so generous with how I... lead the reader in. You know what I mean? How long did you guys edit this for? The book spans about a year and a half. I had the first year or iteration of the first year in October of 2019. That's when I first moved to New York. I was starting this writing program and I sent it to Gian then. We worked probably every season I would do a whole new rewrite. Gian wasn't like... going like take out this line or or you know he was like he would read it and then he would just like be we would just be what because he lived in Italy we'd just be like email or he told me to read this or like whatsapp messaging or voice he would do voice memos all the time like if I just wake up I have like six voice memos he's like dude this chapter is kind of whatever you know and then I just kept work I just yeah I worked on it like from then until December of 2020 that's when I went out to Italy he uh to stay with him for 10 days and we like that was like the final get over the finish line yeah exactly so it seems it seems like less of an editor and more of like an executive producer kind of it sounds like he's rick rubining or he was rick rubining this shit and then the last week come to malibu for sure there was some of that and it was also like i don't know i i don't want to speak on like i know like um

Like, I've heard Gian's stories and, you know, the writer Scott McClanahan who wrote, like, the Sarah book. Yeah, yeah. Because that's a tyrant book as well, right? That's a tyrant book. And that was a huge book for me. Yeah, yeah. And then he just goes and he just mercs himself, like, really, really gnarly in it. Like, I've heard both of their stories. Boiler alert. And it was definitely, like, Gian was, like, you know, I'm sure he works with different writers in different ways. They're definitely... That's just how our, you know. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, however it works is however it works. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's about getting to the finish line with the best possible, you know, end result. Yeah. Well, are we getting the fuckboy movie or TV show? Or, like, what's your William Morris deal looking like? Because, you know, you seem ready for Hollywood, in my opinion. And who is playing the lead, if it were up to you? Oh, that's a good one, TJ. I'm available, just FYI. Yeah, yeah, I'm available. 27? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Broad look young, it's the Zoom. It could be like Euphoria, like everyone's in their 20s, you know what I mean? Chris, maybe there's like a big bro unk character that you could play. You can bestow some wisdom. Yeah, dude, you could be a big cousin. Exactly, exactly. Oh! You may have thought about this before. You may have not. Nah, I don't know. I don't know. We got to get Pattinson, bro. Let's make some money, all right? The book's done. Nah, no, bro. When you're that good looking, they can make you look young. It's fine. Shave his head. Get him in there. We're good. Yeah, I don't even know about all that. We're good. I have a vision. I have a vision for this. Try to work on the next shit. Yeah, are you just writing another book? Is that the plan? I was pretty far in. The next one when this all happened. And then, like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I'm going to keep on that. The success of this book may have changed your trajectory a little bit. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. No, I'm going to keep going. I'm going to keep going. It's the only thing to do. No, I mean, that's true. Other than writing and smoking cigs, like, what kind of occupies your day-to-day life in South Brooklyn? Like, what kind of shit are you doing? Yeah, just reading.

writing. How many pull-ups can you do? Yeah, I hit this park around here, shoot a little bit. I try to cut the cigs with some cardio exercise. Yeah, that's exactly how it works. Smart, smart, smart. It's harder. They hit harder. Yeah, when the lungs are opened up. So you're just living the life of a writer. You read and you write and you smoke. And that's about it. No social media, no art gallery openings, no restaurants, no bars, no clubs, no travel. I mean, that's the thing. I was joking about it. I feel like the only difference when I'm not broke is when I go to the bodega, I'll just go off with extras. You know what I mean? Okay. You know what I mean? I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck. That's really the only difference. Okay. Really? You're smart. That's smart. That's smart because I would probably... So you... You don't have the Porsche truck out front. You don't have any... You didn't get any jewelry. You didn't get... So you're still dusty, but now you get avocado on your sandwich. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I'm the same. I'm the same. Yeah, exactly, dude. I didn't change up, guys. I think that's amazing. I mean, did we invest in crypto, real estate, anything like that? On the side? I mean... Are we only investing in Rick Owens? What's going on, Sean? You had to cob some gear. You had to cob some gear. I got that lined Carhartt hoodie with the back piece, you know? Yeah, you got the extra. It was a chilly winter. I don't know. I don't know. I kind of... It's kind of like... Yeah, I also kind of finessed my way into... going to this program in terms of, like, being able to go to it. But then, like, you know, they got those federal loans I was about to run from. But now I got to. So now that you have a little money, you have to actually pay your student debt, is what you're saying, instead of just being like, ah. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's good. Do you feel more responsible now? Well, I haven't done it yet.

I'm thinking about doing it. I pushed it back to February, I think. That's kind of the problem of an average fuckboy is that just thinking about it and planning it. I'm not a fuckboy, bro. I'm not saying that you are. I'm more putting words in my own mouth about my own life about how the mind of a dusty person might operate. Just the thought of being like, I have the money to pay that. i'm planning on doing that then that kind of ticks the box in your brain it's all the same it's all good like i i'm like getting my life together because i was like i'm gonna do that no i know it doesn't matter if you do it ever and that's like very dangerous and bad i'll probably think that even more now because i said on the spot that i was i told those boys yeah now now it's out in the public i said it it's out into the ether no i don't know maybe try to uh get out of the city at some point yeah that's i mean you sound you sound like you've got it under control because i was always taught that when you get a big check you got to spend a certain amount of it off rip yeah frivolously to like get it out of your system right what did you guys start what did you guys start Well, unfortunately, we haven't made any real money from this podcast yet. But I used to manage a band and we did like a record deal and got money. I went and bought a Mercedes when I was like young. But it wasn't that much money. It was a C-class, Sean. Don't worry. It was a baby mama. It was not. Don't worry. It wasn't the AMG. Don't worry. But at the time, it was just like this felt big because I was like 24, 25. Obviously, there were some other small expenditures that went up my nose, but that's different. This is regular shit. But that's what I was always taught. You've got to take a little off the top for you. Who taught you that, Chris? Your OGs? The OGs got OGs now? The OGs do, in fact, have OGs now. I'm a testament to that. Dame Dash told you that move? Yeah, I learned from Dame. You get the check off top, you've got to get a $27,000 Benz. Exactly. He said get the $27,000 Benz, and that's still, to this day, Dame taught me.

Never wear the same undershirt, underwear, or socks twice. Oh, yeah. That's honestly the second thing. Undershirts and white tees, I'll go off now. Before, all my white shirts were just rags. And they still are, but I'll go off. But you get a fresh one with a thick collar. Oh, baby. Oh, don't do it to him, Sean. But yeah, I mean, it is really, it is nice. Like that feeling of like going to the market or the bodega and just like buying whatever you want and not having to worry about it or think about it. That is like freedom in America, you know? Not to get, not to fuck up the whole vibe, but like when I was thinking about everything that's going on right now, like, you know, with like whatever, like worship, I was like. i went on like three days i was like on a bender like trying to figure everything out about what's going on you know what i mean like listening to mad you know and like trying to have my take and i was like maybe the most sane take is like just being like yo there's not an invasion happening right now like here like right and like what are you doing with this space that you have like suddenly like my time was like way more i don't know if that's or like I could go to the store. I don't know. Like, no, no, I know what you mean. That's like my takeaway. Like I was appreciating real freedom. I cleaned my house. Yeah. I was like, yo, why are you living? You can go do this stuff. Other people can't. Yeah. Like, and then like do something with it. Yeah. Yeah. This pocket is not like we just, we just, I'm just. I know exactly what you mean. It's like being gracious for what you have or grateful for what you have is very different. It's something that I wish a lot of people on Twitter thought about. In America, we're fighting a culture war where you wake up and you say, what am I going to argue about today? Is it going to be Zendaya's dress?

Right. Is it going to be what Joe Rogan said? Is it going to be a Kanye West music video? And it's all meaningless bullshit. And then it's important to recognize in the rest of the world. It's like, I would love to just be able to like watch the Kardashians and like eat a dinner, you know? And I, but I can't do that. Or like, unless you, yeah, unless you're about to go out there or, or like affect, I don't know. Yeah. Anyway, damn it, dude. I have to do weird. That's just something I was thinking about the last couple days. It's okay. The fourth quarter buzzer just ended on this episode anyway, so I think it was a nice way to bring it all down, Sean. Well done. Hell yeah. You are a storyteller after all. A structured and considered young man. That's the arc. That's the fifth act. That's the arc, right? He's wet with the arc, bro. He's wet with the arc. All right, Sean. Well, Fuckboy is in stores everywhere, right? Yeah, shit. Is there an audio book that somebody else read? I read it. I read it. You read it. Good for you. A lot of people don't do it. It seems hard. Yeah, Sean, thank you for joining us. Honestly, it was a pleasure. You guys go get Fuckboy, and we'll look out for what's next. Appreciate you guys. All right, man. Have a good one. All right. We'll talk to you. Thanks, Sean. If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing, which is why you can count on Grainger for professional-grade products and next-day delivery so you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.