037. - Gabriella Karefa-Johnson

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week. Jason, does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. Want to make a podcast? Spotify's got a platform that lets you make one super easily, then distribute it everywhere, and even earn money. We like that. All in one place for totally free. It's called Spotify for Podcasters. And here's how it works. Spotify for podcasters lets you record and edit podcasts right from your cellular telephone or your computer. So no matter what your setup is like, you can start creating today. Then you can distribute your podcast to Spotify and everywhere else, those other places that podcasts are heard. Video podcasts are also available on Spotify. And when you want to take conversations with your fans to the next level, Q&As and polls are the best way to get them talking. With Spotify for podcasters, you can earn money in a variety of ways, including ads and... and podcast subscriptions. And best of all, it's totally free. Zero catch. We've been using it ever since we started How Long Gone. And ever since I discovered Spotify for Podcasters, I feel like having the option of turning off the Q&As and the polls on the user dashboard has really helped boost my creativity and take it to another level. I highly recommend giving it a try. Download the Spotify for Podcasters app or go to www.spotify.com slash podcasters to get started.

Hello, Chris. Damn, I thought TJ was screening my call. No, I was just over here getting properly set up. I just saw a pretty funny tweet. Was that right? Yeah. If Seattle cops think getting hit with a half-empty water bottle justifies violently attacking the entire crowd, they should definitely never be the solo acoustic opener for the Third Eye Blind tour. It's a little wordy. It's a little wordy, but it's really right up my street. You know what I mean? It's got a current event and third eye blind. That's really all I need. Yeah, it is. And there's been lots of great tweets going around the world that are helping change everything. A lot of barren Trump being tall tweets. Mark Wahlberg being a hate crime person. How do you feel about Barron coming for your title as best tall guy? I don't have that title, and I don't think he's coming for that either. He's not coming for that. Well, actually, maybe you guys are tied for worst tall guy, now that I think about it. There are so many bad tall guys out there, even just in the NBA alone. You know, Baron, I'm feeling for him. He's in that awkward stage of his tall journey where, you know, his body is disproportionate. He's probably on suicide watch for many other reasons as well. The shit where it says kill your dad. Yeah. I mean, that's got to be. I mean, everyone is embarrassed by their dad. But imagine how embarrassed he must be. Everyone's like, oh, yeah. Donald Trump is his dad. That does suck. He's got no friends. Maybe he will either save the world or he will, unfortunately, eat a bunch of pills or something. If he gets old enough and he walks away from the family, that would be pretty wild shit. Pulls a Markle?

Yeah, exactly, exactly, except hopefully more likable. I don't know if that's in the cards, but being the son of Trumpito is a very difficult hand to be dealt in life. Tough hill to climb, but he does have a lot of money, and it's weird seeing him because he really looks just like Trump, and you imagine that face is just what Trump looked like when he was, whatever, 15. It is. Truth be told, the face is punchable. I can't even lie. It is. I want to give this young man the benefit of the doubt, but I'm sorry, bro. It has a James Dean canceled quality to it. If you knew James Dean was a pedophile or had sex with animals or something, that's the vibe that I get. It's more like James Dean if his face was made out of like silly putty is the vibe I get. Oh, okay. Like a little melted wax, you know? Yeah, it was damaged in shipping. I know that you're on a journey through America's heartland. I went to Orange County yesterday, Orange County, California. That's actually America's heartland, but give us a scene report from hell on earth. From hell on earth, masks are now. bad in the OC. You will be shamed and ridiculed and made fun of if you are wearing a mask. Wearing a mask in the OC is a sign of being a pussy cuck. Luckily for you, you're already a pussy cuck so the mask can stay on. Business as usual when they take a gander at me. I heard that before I got to Richmond. Some people in Richmond were taking that as a wearing a mask means you're a democrat which is so insane which is so fucking backwards it's insane it's crazy like i can't believe that like that is is so politicized you know still but but i guess i shouldn't be surprised you shouldn't i mean i'm sure there's been cases of this all through time of you know whenever any type of or you know like you're you're getting insurance for your life you fucking pussy

Or you're going to a doctor because you have a little cold or something. That's true. Well, what else was going on? I just went to go visit moms, see my brother and his girlfriend, and there was discussion of people in Orange County having full restaurant dining experiences now. It's going down. Damn. dining experience but it wasn't full it was outside i was outside and i was alone and there was nobody near me and what you ate some oysters perhaps yeah i was at the ordinary the ordinary a restaurant in charleston that's very good um and uh yeah i had some i had some oysters a few other things what's the vibe there for for the for the revive The vibe in Charleston in general is fucking completely bananas. It's literally like nothing's going on, except there's some stuff boarded up. Which I will guess is probably just... Because there's a tropical storm coming? Has nothing to do with the Black Lives Matter protest? I mean, I feel like it's more... I don't know, man. It's like... The mask thing is not really happening. There was a full bachelorette party at the hotel. like, full birthday party at the hotel. I mean, it's fucking wild. I mean, Charleston is the bachelorette capital of America, right? It's true. But also, that's, like, what the government has told them is okay. You know what I mean? These people aren't, like, breaking the law. Like, that's actually... They're breaking moral laws if they're able to have a party and celebrate during this time where our world is burning and mourning. Well, that's 100% true. It's just a weird... It's a weird, it's just the whole scene is weird. But I also, I went to a gym. And immediately regretted it. Because it was a hotel gym in South Carolina? No, it was not a hotel gym. I found a gym that was open and went there. And I think it was like a Blue Lives Matter vibe.

You went to a gym where CB was not welcome, even though you looked like a cop. No, that's what I was about to say. That's what sent me on a full spiral is that I was very welcome because I looked like a fucking fed. I looked like a cool cop. Welcome, brother. I got a shaved head. I got tattoos. I'm obviously lifting very heavy weights. No, but honestly, it made me feel I left and I was like. I mean, I didn't talk to anyone or anything. It wasn't like that, but just overall. Nobody handed you a brochure in the locker room? No, no, no. It was not a recruitment center, but there was literally a Blue Lives Matter American flag on the wall. I noticed halfway through the workout, and I was like, uh, shit. So you went to a white people gym in the South? Yeah, but I can't explain it. It was different because it was kind of old school, like free weights only kind of vibe, which feels even more racist for some reason. Luckily, there's a wood way, so I felt a little more, you know, but no, honestly. I mean, usually when you go to the gym and you see the heavy free weight power lifting zone, it's usually a pretty well racially diverse crowd. It's true. I mean, there was a black man in the gym. Otherwise, I probably would have left. I would have actually thought they were trying to recruit me. But I just forget, dude. I forget. It really did spin me out a little bit about the reason people will say stuff to me. Or even a guy on the street talking to me about how bad the looting is and shit. They talk to me openly about that because I look like I'm down for their cause. Well, Chris, there's like a... a graphic going around showing all the levels of the, of the movement and the resistance and all the jobs that everyone has, you know, the, the medic, the communicator, the people that shine the laser pointers, the people that help, you know, all the helpers and you are a covert spy. I'm, I could be, I could get into a sleeper cell and in bed. Yes. Honestly, it's so weird. Like it's so, I mean, cause you know, I think that,

I mean, people in the South are obviously friendly. And that is something that I, you know, under normal circumstances, like and kind of makes me feel good about where I'm from because it's so fucked most of the time. But then now it's just like, I guess that assumption of just agreeing because you're white, that bugs me out. That's like a very wild way to approach things with people you don't know. It is, just to assume, because of how you look. Yeah, exactly. You have been racially profiled and stereotyped, Chris, as a white person. I have. I have. I'm not going to – I mean, I don't want to take it further than the pod, but, you know, it's just now I'm in Asheville, North Carolina, which is – Actually, I'd never been here before. It's pretty amazing as far as weather and scenery goes. It's really beautiful. After Charleston, which just felt like... I mean, I love Charleston normally. Obviously, it's got a fraught history, to say the very least. What town down there doesn't? Well, Charleston particularly, though, has a terrible history. But I just think that... Overall, this trip has been very interesting as far as... Your journey through the different Confederate strongholds. Well, it's also just like seeing how things get so loose and matter less to the people as you go further south. And then I'll get to Atlanta and that show will be serious again. Right, right, right, right. So yeah, you're in the middle of major cities where... You know, you're as far out of the silo as possible. Yes. But you're all simultaneously being very online in the silo. So that's going to be jarring. I'm both in the silo and also physically outside of said silo. But I mean, like I saw my friend today who lives here in Asheville. And he was like, there was a protest last night and the cops didn't even go. Like the cops were like, no, we don't want to escalate it. Like we'd rather it be.

Like, you guys do your thing. Which is, I don't know if progressive is the word I would use, but I was pretty impressed that that was the take. Because I do think that does de-escalate things quite a bit. It does. As long as that is happening because they're putting more trust in the protests being peaceful and not happening as a means of refusing to be a police officer. Because you're upset right now, which is what a lot of people are doing. I mean, the thing in Buffalo is crazy. Yeah, I mean, or even just people who are on the force and still patrolling and choosing not to, you know, fight any crime one way or another because they feel like they're being attacked by the rest of the world. Well, you know, to that case, I say fuck 12 and let them, you know. Indeed. I saw a peaceful protest yesterday in Hollywood. No one was marching. They were just all huddled in front of the entrance of the Scientology office across the street from the club where I used to DJ. Which club is that? Cinespace. Oh, wow. So you're telling me that Black Lives Matter, Cinespace, and Scientology, the TGA trifecta all unfolded in front of your eyes? Mm-hmm. And I was there to capture a wide-angle photo. With my 0.5. But it was good. I was like, it's great to see this peaceful protest happening. And it's also great to see the Scientology building unable to operate or function very well. I love to see that. You're right. That's a nice little combo. Two birds, one stone. We do have a guest today. A friend of mine who I last saw, I ran into her in Paris at a restaurant when times were much simpler, and it was a true pleasure. She lives in New York. Her name is Gabriela Karifa Johnson. She's the fashion director at Garage Magazine and a stylist as well. And she's been pretty vocal about everything that's been going on in a way that is...

I just really like the way she presents her feelings and her ideas. I think it's like she has a tone that I can appreciate and is giving me information that I probably need to hear. So I thought it would be nice to invite her to bless the listenership with some knowledge. So let's give her a call. Idiot. Hello. What's Gucci? Yeah, I mean, literally nothing. Literally nothing. I was hoping you'd respond in that way. Truly zero Gucci-ness happening. What's going on? Where are you, by the way? I didn't check in with your location. I am in Palm Springs where my mother lives. She is a hospice physician and naturally everybody comes to Palm Springs too. like retire and die so this is basically the epicenter of the industry and it's really weird because i'm literally in essentially like an old hollywood commune slash retirement home and the only way that i've been able to feel connected to anything that's happening in the world is through my phone which i you know welcome and engage but it's really weird so i'm flying back to new york actually tonight And you're flying back because you can't stand being disconnected? Or was it planned? Or is it just time? I can't really stand being disconnected. I live in Crown Heights, Brooklyn, which is the subject of constant police presence. And I just feel like I need to go home right now. And the industry was really, really invested in this idea of like, we can do this. We can adapt. COVID-19 can't keep us down. We're going to... replicate all the systems we had in a world where there wasn't a mass pandemic and just like try and keep going. And I have a real investment in the idea that we should not try and keep going and that we really need to reflect in this moment. And it's hard to do that, you know, three hours behind. That's the problem with Los Angeles in general. That lag really gets me too. Look, Palm Springs has its own unique fashion scene that is not to be overlooked.

It's not. I mean, let me tell you, like all of my sisters out here, like the girls are looking cute in their Tommy Bahama, like for sure. And a little bit further north, a little closer to the mountains when you get into India, like you really can't touch that swag. And I appreciate it enormously. Try and touch the swag of India. I was not expecting an India scene report, but look, here we are. I mean, what a bus. How hot is it there right now? Because it's hot as hell over here in Glendale. It's literally 115 degrees, which sounds like hot. Jesus Christ. Doesn't that sound like sci-fi? Like that's not a temperature that it should be in California, but it fully is. I couldn't take this call outside because your phone gets too hot and it like automatically turns off. Oh, shit. God, that's so extreme. God. It's so extreme. But I think New York is also disgusting, which I'm not excited about. I mean, I've been driving from New York to Atlanta and it's been, Richmond and Charleston were swamps. It's terrible. But I'm in Asheville, North Carolina today, which has got a lot of trees. So it's a little nicer here. It is nicer. I imagine this is an interesting time to be driving through the South of America. Well, you know, we've been, you know, I, I haven't, I mean, this was planned before, uh, obviously the, um, uprising. Uh, so I was, I, and I was like, fuck, I'm just gonna do it anyway. I mean, this is like where I'm from. I guess I should see it. And it's been, I think I overall, I'm glad I've seen it. I'll say that. Cause it's fucking wild. I mean, we just said in the intro, like. Charleston, South Carolina, it's like there's nothing going on, but they boarded up because like other cities did. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. I could be wrong, but then like Asheville is boarded up and every single board has like Black Lives Matter graffiti on it. Charleston. None, really. It was like, we love you. Like, love, peace. You know what I mean? Like, we're all one people. Yeah. Our patio is now open. Exactly. Exactly. The patio open was definitely more of the vibe. Right. But actually, this is something interesting to talk to you about because I did mention it before we called you. But I've realized, though, because of the way I look.

I have been profiled as being down with the white man a little more than I would like. Right. Because, you know, in the South, people are friendly and want to talk. And at this point, there's nothing else to talk about except what's going on. And they kind of just talk to me because I'm a white guy with tattoos and a shaved head. And I forget what that looks like. Chris, I got two words for you. Makeover. It might be time. Not no. Not no. I just got comfortable with my shaved head during the pandemic. Yeah, you really got to get away from the skinhead aesthetic. Queer Eye Season 5 just came out. Take a page out of their book. I thought my, I thought my rich guy eccentric glasses would set me apart, but it doesn't seem to be working. No, no, it isn't. And also it's like, I'm sorry. Even if you were like looking cute, looking, I mean, you are looking cute at all times, but even if you were like, my hair is flowing, I've got my like tortoise rim glasses. The thing that is so interesting about this movement is it's like you, the presentation of like intellectualism is not. pass like you have to actively be engaging in this and like actually know that regardless of how down you are with black people if you aren't expressively doing action steps to prove that it's like it's all rhetoric my man you know what I mean so it's like like you might be working for the New Yorker like you might be down with Tennessee Coates but it doesn't matter You need to also be in the streets or you need to be on your fucking Instagram or you need to be all up in your companies asking why when you look around at senior leadership, you only see white people. It's literally down to every facet of our existence. And I'm riled up and ready to go because we've been on it. When you texted me yesterday saying I'm riled up, I was like, this is exactly what we need. I was excited to hear that. I mean, you know, we've tried, you know, since since George Floyd and the stuff started happening, we tried to pivot the show to, you know, tackle this stuff a little more head on, especially as as to, you know, upper middle class white guys with only so much to offer. We prefer to give the platform to people who know a little more than we do.

And also realizing that our listener is probably like a 25 year old white dude who cares about what we say more than they should. So bringing some information to them has become like what the point of this is. And I think like the whole thing that's being talked about a lot is that white people just need to listen and also not lean on their black friends or coworkers or whatever to either reassure them or give them the information that they're looking for. And I think that's like a really, I mean, I understand that. That's pretty, to me, that's pretty easy. I understand that's the last thing someone wants right now. But I think that's a really hard thing for white America to fully understand, to grasp. It is. And I think that in our industry, particularly, we have had these kinds of conversations for a very long time. But based on the genetic makeup of what that industry is, there are so few voices to champion the idea that. when I speak outside of the, you know, power structure of fashion, like you might be Anna Wintour, but like we're living in a world where black voices are not only silenced, but actually actively, you know, disregarded, especially in this fashion system. So yeah, give your platforms over. Like you might be the gatekeepers of like what is acceptable, what is like up to snuff, like what fashion really wants to speak about. But you can't gatekeep this. Like, you have to really relinquish that control and be okay with sitting in that discomfort. And it is uncomfortable. But you know what's, like, way more uncomfortable? Like, having your entire existence policed at every single moment of the day. I would agree. Yeah, I would probably. I would tend to agree with that. I mean, I would, you know, now that you put it that way, I understand. Yeah. I think that the other thing about it is it comes down to some extent. Like, for me personally, Like, I've never used social media in this way in my life. That's just not what I think it's – I didn't think that's what it was for. I never had interest in that. And then, you know, I started thinking about it, and Jason and I talked about it, especially when we, like, pivoted the show a little bit. And it was like, you know what, man? Like, what –

it's like you're saying like, what, why do you care this much? Like what's more important here? And that's what's so interesting to me about people that are holding out or people that are choosing just being so careful. It's like, do you really want to be wrong about this? Like, I don't understand. That's what I don't understand. I know a while. And it's an ego thing, I think to an extent, but it took me a second to get there. So I can, and I have people telling me, I have people that are smart. that know what to do telling me what to do. So if you don't have that, then it's taking longer, I guess. Yeah, I think so. And I think that, you know, part of me is very, I just had this conversation with actually somebody who, you know, didn't post like a blackout Tuesday square and not saying Black Lives Matter on their Instagram all the time. And I was like, don't, don't do it. Because if you don't think you have the vocabulary or the prerequisite education, to engage with this movement meaningfully than stay off of Instagram. That's not what it's for. No one is interested in the virtue signaling of people who want to get skin in the game of Black liberation. What we're interested in is having a space where... even if we don't speak about politics or about, you know, social justice or racial justice all the time, which very much was my case. I had never really talked about those issues on my platform. This is now the time where like, if you fuck with my outfits, you should listen to what the fuck I say. Oh, you like me, you like me my little outfits. Now it's time to listen. Right. And it's like, it's like now maybe it's time to like, listen to my words. And it's like, this industry is one that has actually profiteered from. It's not even swagger jacking. It's like cultural looting of like Black aesthetics and like our cultural contributions. And it has always at the exact same time excluded the authentic voices in that way. So I just am like anyone who feels that they have an audience that is hearing from them something they're not hearing elsewhere, which for a Black person in fashion with my audience being probably 85% non-POC.

I'm going to just, I have to, I just feel a duty to use it in that way. And it's like social media collapses conversations, right? Like we all see everybody posting about, I just had a very interesting situation where, you know, people that I love were posting about this set of policy reforms. Eight can't wait. I'm sure you guys know about it because GQ like literally hopped on its dick in like two seconds. Is this the, oh, is this, this is the D-Ray shit, right? This is a D-Ray shit. Hold on, hold on. Before we get into this, because I have heard both sides of this. But I need to hear it from somebody who I trust. Is D-Ray like Sean King level? Or is he, like, where are we at with D-Ray? Okay, so the thing about D-Ray as opposed to Sean King is that D-Ray was active in... Black Lives Matter, he kind of rose to prominence during Ferguson. But what a lot of people don't know who aren't following actually the majority voices of the BLM movement, but have the minority audiences, people like the founders of BLM, like Alicia Garza, Opal to Metries, Colors, like these are Black women who organized. in the liberation of Black people. That's another thing I would like for you. BLM was started and still run by women, correct? Run by women. And it was based on revolutionary thought that was engineered by Black queer women, you know, in the 60s and 70s. And it is really existing in this moment as a continuation of these, you know, female thought leaders. So on one hand, it's like, DeRay does the work to an extent and within you know, a system that I actually think is much closer to center than what BLM actually is. And what is so frustrating about that for so many people is that DeRay was pushed out of Ferguson for the exact same reason that people are resisting It Can't Wait, because he co-opted this moment of like real radical thought and diluted it around concepts of, you know, white comfort in a lot of ways. It's like these

policies are reformist like they are not abolitionists they are they could be argued to be on the way to abolition but for a lot of us the first step in that is defunding and this is the kind of policy that you can kind of cling on to and the eight just just to be clear it's basically it's basically saying we can just teach these guys how to do better it's literally like what is so crazy is that it's literally majority rules that exist in many many police departments and it's like okay let's just ban chokeholds like yeah New York had banned chokeholds and like Eric Garner was still murdered by a suffocation and a chokehold like require de-escalation like that kind of concept is is not really tenable because you know there are always exceptional circumstances that can be argued on behalf of police um commissioners to justify actions of excessive force it's just like there are these really loose guidelines and that in itself is a problem but the biggest problem is that there's literally no enforcement mechanism it's like asking people it's like putting rules in a rule book that they don't listen to anyway so it sounds really good it's having rules for the sake of having rules it's having rules for the sake of having rules and it's also like something that's baked into it is the idea of um self-reporting so it's like In what world have the police ever been really good at tattletaling on themselves? That's literally what they're known to not do. And that's how you get disowned. And that's also no human. I've never called the police and said, I was speeding today. Can you guys send me a ticket? Yeah, 100%. It's actually against human nature, but definitely within a police force that's founded on fraternity and mob mentality. And then... But, you know, it's all to the point of that DeRay has become a celebrity in this movement, and we should always be questioning, you know, a mouthpiece or a head figure that has that much proximity to the establishment. Like, this is not a, like, let's work within the system to change it movement. This is, like, we need to dismantle the system and build a new one. Yeah, he's rebranded the powerful.

movement so white people can you know uh appreciate it and and adopt it more and also maybe making a buck off of it in the in the end as well yeah i think some people do have problems with you know the way that um his celebrity has been monetized and like the whole spawn con relationships it's like i don't like get your bag black man i'm fine with that but like don't mess with the work that's being done and my and and I disagree with reformist policy, and I do not think that it is nearly as radical as we should be thinking. But at the same time, I don't fault for somebody believing that 8 Can't Wait is a great set of policies that reduce harm. They do in theory and within a statistical vacuum. My problem is, why would we use this moment when radical thought is as close as it has ever been to penetrating mainstream discourse to then offer a diluted, very watered down version of what we actually could be. Defunding the police is not something that people are saying is going to happen overnight. And it's not something that people are also saying is never going to happen and could never happen. People in power are hearing. the need to do that. And there are very tenable steps in making it happen. So why would we co-opt this moment to talk about something that serves to reduce 70% of 72%, I think is the figure of police killings when like we have a path to a hundred percent, you know? So I want to fight for that path. But yeah, to go back to your normal question, I do think that like DeRay is not a scammer, but I do think he is an opportunist. And I want to go on the record because before this happened, I was always like, oh, my black friends don't fuck with Sean King. Therefore, I will not fuck with Sean King. That seems reasonable to me. But that motherfucker is like a cockroach. It's crazy. I see somebody reposting him every day, if not multiple times a day. And people that think they're on the front lines of this shit. And I'm just like, how does my dumb white ass know not to do this, but you don't? I don't understand.

I think that some people really appreciate the fact that he can be used as an information source and a media source. I think the problem is when you give him money. And I think that's a problem. It's a common theme. Like, you just don't want to give him money. And I think that the way that he gets money is that through his Action Pack, which is, you know, largely email based in terms of outreach. It's like, we can't do this work unless you support it. So it's like, you're giving money so that you can be getting these petitions. You can be getting these like auto-filled emails. You can be getting the phone numbers to call. And I understand how like, in theory, that is really appealing. The problem is, I think much, it's much larger, but also smaller in scale when you think about it. It's like, his mission is very self-centric. In the way that like, you don't know the names of like the three. women who were the founders of BLM, but you know, DeRay McKesson's name, like that in itself is hugely damaging to the mission because the people with the authority of the movement don't have the audience. So it's like, whenever you bring celebrity into it, it becomes a whole crazy palaver, which is also why I, and you know, I had a very frank conversation with Cleo, who's one of my best friends, an amazing activist is like, You know, the kind of person that I'm happy is existing in like the Hollywood world and the art world and the fashion world because she does care. But this like mass mobilization of influencers to, you know, roll out policy that's actually in a lot of ways in contrast with what the call to action is for BLM, like that is a problem to me. That's when it becomes a problem. And, and I mean, the information that Sean King is distributing is, is, is why it's not like he's got an exclusive, like this is shit you can find. That's the other thing that I'm, it's not like he's breaking news. He just has it and he's got the following. So people just go with it. Yes. I think that that's totally it. And that's kind of what I, I mean when I say that Instagram and social media collapses conversation because it's like the biggest voice wins. And I just think when the biggest voice is advocating.

you know, in the interest of something like Black Lives Matter or in the interest of finally exposing, you know, the white power structure, then that voice needs to be diversified enough, at least, to represent the entire spectrum of thought, you know, around these issues. And I don't think of Sean King as an expert in that way. I think he's been working for a very long time. I think that people trust him in ways that I don't to handle, you know, their family's cases, to connect them to people who can support them. And that's all good and well, but it bums me out when I see, you know, celebrities with huge, huge audiences then disseminating his information as if this is the authority voice on the matter. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the thing is that it's also in a time like this, I think people want to participate and do the right thing. And if that's the, if that's, you know, the closest to, you know, if the information is coming across their feet already, then that's how they're going to share it. Right. And maybe the point should be telling people like, If Sean King or D. Ray McKesson are those people to you, you have barely scratched the surface of the education you should be doing for yourself. This isn't enough. Happy to have you here, but you haven't even set your foot in the doorway yet. That's exactly how I feel. That's exactly how I feel. That was a very good analogy and explanation. That same power struggle is... the problem with almost everything in the world, you know, from politics to EDM, you know? To EDM! You know, there should be more Moody Man fans than Marshmello fans, but, you know, they are not. Thank you for breaking that down. I love me saying right as if I know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, totally. Okay, Moody Man is an underground DJ that is African-American and Marshmello is a white. massive huge DJ who wears a fake marshmallow on top of his head. Don't. I mean, I feel like I know what I need to know to not like marshmallow. But also on the flip side, marshmallow donated $50,000 to the Black Lives Matter. So that's sort of good. That's sort of good. We've also talked about the celebrity

donation stuff on the show with, with Jeff, Jeff on the last episode. And I just, and, and I wonder if you'll agree with me or, but I mean, I think the people getting angry at celebrities based on a net worth they Googled versus how much they donate is kind of takes away from the point. Yeah. I do think that that's probably not the fight we should be having. Instead. It might be like, what about a celebrity donation? um, signals interest and what actually is interest. Like, is that, is that a cop out because, you know, they have the resources to be able to, um, support organizations that are doing the work or do we want them to be invested in doing the work themselves? And my answer to that is like, why the fuck would you ever think a celebrity would be invested in doing the work? You know what I mean? It's like, I don't, and I'm personally, I'm not looking to Ariana Grande to be like digging into like black queer. and disseminating it to our audience. I don't think that that expectation is right. But I do think if you're going to blast the world at how much you're donating, then you should also have some real thoughts about why you're donating. And that seems to be missing from the discourse. I mean, I did that. No, agreed. I mean, I do think also, though, that it's... Yeah, no, no, you're right. You're right. But someone like Ariana Grande, that reach is so... is so big, and she's a good example of someone who the reach is so big, that her giving money is maybe, obviously she's not doing the work, but that will, I think, encourage other people to do the same. She's better at making money than she is about speaking about this. So just go do your shit and bring us a big-ass check and we're all good. I think that that's definitely something to be said, too. In my mind, I would... like it to be like a both and like yes give us your fat checks but also direct your readership to people who do know what they're talking about so that those two things are happening in tandem but also like yeah i really want them to be cutting a fat check to these organizations my only problem in that is like

usually those donations are directed to things like, you know, Color of Change or like the ACLU, which are like these huge behemoth organizations that can totally use the monetary resources of a celebrity. But it's like, if you want to use your money in powerful ways like that, half of that donation could make... enormous change in like much smaller grassroots organizations so it's also like i'm not gonna like hand out gold stars for the bare fucking minimum you know what i mean it's like yeah you should be doing that but what i would actually respect and appreciate is if you were researching the ways you know also i mean if you're gonna donate a million dollars to the aclu it takes 10 minutes to figure out the other you know you don't even if you're not trying to do a deep dive you can figure it out pretty easily yeah maybe um maybe all these celebrities can take that 50k and then just pay the salary of somebody to be the person that tells them how to use their social media and their celebrity for the better yeah and and also like so that you can also learn it's like you should be invested in this like if you're gonna say black lives matter then you need to be invested in it and it's not just a monetary investment in my mind which is why i have so many problems with like yeah i love these pledges yes it's been time for gucci to be talking about black lives being you know mattering yes it's been time for louis vuitton to be talking about how black lives matter but you can't you know y'all also raise a billion dollars in a day for a building so that's the shit that honestly and when that was going on i was like is this for real these people care about i like don't understand and then and then i i mean the building is fire though The building is dope. Like those flying buttresses, you can't touch those buttresses. The building is dope. It's a dope building. In Notre Dame's defense, the building was dope. No one can argue with that. But I do think that to me, I mean, that also to me feels so European.

Like, I don't think that would happen in America in the same way. I just don't think we care about. Yeah, because every big building in America is already owned by a corporation. If the Staples Center burns down, Staples will just have to build another one. That's true. You guys got to sell some paper. Exactly. You know, and also, you know, I'm a pretty well-known cynic. And I have, you know, when the T-shirts started happening, I was like, oh, here we go. And then I thought about it more and I'm like, Chris, again, this is the kind of thing where some bozos that would never give their money, this is how they're going to do it. So we have to look at that as a positive. I know better. I can go doing $100 and not wear a Fear of God logo. Right. But again, it takes all kinds, I feel like. And I understand what you're saying about you should also be doing the work. And I think that's a reasonable expectation, but also like never underestimate the stupidity of the American people. Right. True. It's very true. But then in my mind, it feels like my job to call it out. And like, I have never been that girl. I'm not, first of all, I really don't care what the fuck you're doing with your life. Like I'm looking out for number one. Like I'm just going to go ahead and like, I'm going to mind my business. But as soon as you try to engage with it at a surface level, like the aesthetic activism. of Instagram specifically was pissing me the fuck off. You've been going off. No one is safe. Literally no one is safe. I am public enemy number one right now because I will call you the fuck out. Even Jacquemus? Even Jacquemus. Don't come for Jacquemus. He's on the list, okay? What about my man Vetements? Look, okay, here's the thing about Demna, though. Because Demna went into a French, like, totally nationalist, classist superstructure like Balenciaga. And he was like, I'm going to teach you guys a thing or two about dystopia. And in my mind, that is active work. Meanwhile, I do know that Balenciaga has cut off, you know, because of COVID and because of the moment that we're in right now as a world, aka dissension into chaos.

cut a lot of the funding for the public programs that they did do. They were really invested in like world, um, in like the world health organization and hunger. Yeah, exactly. And I know that that's not where they're spending finances right now, but look, Demna is not the worst of them. I probably, he's probably safe for a second. If I would have known we were going this way, I would have just made a list and we could just go on down the list. I mean, Jason, after this podcast, you and I might be on the list. Don't come for Tommy Hilfiger next. Oh, no, I know, right? I mean, I think the influencer stuff or the, you know, for lack of a better term, cancellation is, it's interesting to me because, I mean, obviously it's going to happen in a situation like this. And I think it's justified, of course. My question, and I've heard people say this too, is like, do we, where are we at with people like being allowed to learn from their mistakes? Yeah. That's the question, because I can't, if somebody's life is literally ruined, their livelihood is ruined, like, they have to be able to recover from that. I don't think it's fair if we don't allow them to recover, if they do it right. Are you talking about OJ? Yes. Go on about that, okay. It's a cause that's close to my heart. Yes, right, right. I mean, look, first of all, I'm screaming at that OJ comparison. Second of all, second of all, it's like, I really do distinguish between call out culture and cancel culture. And to me, it's like, you get canceled. You get canceled when you're called out and you have the audacity to defend, deflect, self-center that response. So it's like, I cancel you for the way you deal with the call out, not because you're getting called out. And that's the thing. That's what I've been talking about with people too, is it seems like to me the, the real crime is when you somehow make this about yourself in any way. And that, and that is something that, that I, I think is a true issue and that it should be maybe discussed more almost because it's like, I don't think people are doing it on purpose. I think that's just how self-involved we are as a culture. It's very hard. It's very hard to express empathy in a way that is actually selfless, especially, especially on the internet. Right.

And I think that is a huge part of it in general. I think it's just, I mean, we're at the very tip of the iceberg. But I have to say, I have to say like the prevalence of these weak ass, you know, apologies in your notes, like getting on here, trying to, you know, virtue signal and show your receipts and you've been about it. What that says to me is all of the people that are being called out. do not even have within their immediate network, somebody who they can reach out to for guidance, not saying that it's black people's job to be like teaching white people how to be decent, but it's like, you don't even have in your, yeah, you have no one to call and like examine that. Gabby, just go ahead. I just want to go ahead and get this out of the way now. Just email me your retainer for, for writing my apology. I want to be, I want to have it ready. Like a New York times obituary. And I think that there's like, I really do think that there is value. You know, there are people who disagree with me and are like, let. you know, this is best deal. Like, this is like, this is Stalingrad. Like, let this shit fall. Like, don't be out here trying to like save people from off the Titanic. And I'm like, I actually do think that there is some responsibility for someone like me who literally works within a white supremacist structure. I'm not like, I am complicit in that there's no, there's no way, shape or form or path within luxury to say that you're not complicit in upholding. those structures. So I'm like my work to reconcile that internally for myself is trying to help people see. And it's like, I'm not going to write your statement for you, but I'm going to fucking yell at you all the things you need to hear so that you can write it well. Okay. I'll just, what I'll do is I'll go ahead and I'll record the conversation and then take my notes from that. Okay. That's actually less work for you, which I like, you know what I mean? That's a better deal for you. Exactly.

But a publicist literally was like, what's your Venmo? Like, I really feel like I need to be paying you. And I was like, first off, A, I am like on the verge of impending poverty because of COVID. So like, yes. But B, like... you know, also divert that money to people who are really doing something. Cause like at the end of the day, like I'm a fucking loud mouth on Instagram and there are people like in these goddamn sheets. So, you know, I mean, I, I think that the, I, and I think that's another thing that I've taken away from this too, is that, and everyone I think feels guilt. Well, if they are, if they're smart, they feel guilt, like they're not doing enough. Right. And I, I saw something going around. I think my friend Vince actually posted. But basically, look, everybody is doing different things. Doing nothing is the problem. You don't need to be getting hit with tear gas to contribute. Yeah, to your point, we need to diversify our response because the white power structure is sure as hell insidious and diversified and in every single part of our world. So we need to attack every single part. And there are different ways of doing that. Oh, that makes me feel better. You feel me? So it's okay. Don't worry. I'm not, I'm, you know, you, everyone is doing the work in the way that they can. It's the people who aren't fucking interested in doing the work that I'm coming for. So don't worry. You're safe. Well, as a, as a, as a person who's, yeah, for now, as a person who's going to, to Atlanta to spend some time with my parents, you know, I think I'm about to, I mean, I'm not that concerned. Like they're, they're definitely not like they're on the right side of history. It's just, they're like. closer to the wrong side that i like but i do think that i do think that that piece of this and there again there's a lot of stuff about this going around and and i i don't i like giving my all the all this obvious shit is obviously important and that's why it gets the most ink and the most screen time but i do think talking to It's just, it's the hardest thing and maybe the most important in some ways. Yeah, I completely agree. And I think in a lot of ways, we are conditioned to think like if your grandpa isn't over here calling the grocery store clerk colored, then you don't have to have that conversation. Like that's not, it doesn't need to be. Okay, because my granddad's dead. So okay, we can keep moving. All right. Yeah, like it doesn't need to be that explicit. I think like the part of this.

that is, you know, the hardest to deal with is recognizing and reckoning with the fact that most white people in our immediate proximity as middle-class people working in the fashion industry and the media landscape, like most people have benefited in more ways than one from the oppression of Black people. And it's like, if you can't immediately come, you know, if those... ways don't immediately come to mind then there's more digging that needs to happen and like just because your dad or mom or cousin or like crazy uncle aren't like raging racist doesn't mean that these conversations don't need to be had yeah and i think that is something that is maybe a little misunderstood or just not yeah not under the microscope it's like my dad voted for obama like i don't have to like talk about this it's like that that ain't it sis you know what i mean i mean i'm not it's just gonna be i mean just being in the i don't know being in the south and jason was in Orange County. He's originally from Orange County, which is the south of California. Yikes. I'm from, yeah, born and raised in Huntington Beach, bro. I'll fucking kick all your guys' ass. Wow. Huntington Beach is like very close to like La Jolla level or like Santa Barbara level problematic shit. I think it's beyond because Santa Barbara and La Jolla have some more money. Right. Okay, fine. Fair, fair, fair, fair. But what Jason pointed out before, and what I think is interesting, and especially seeing this driving through the South, it's like, rednecks look like rednecks in the South. There's a look that you recognize. In Orange County, it's like a good-looking guy with a big Instagram following and some Oakleys on. It's like buff. who's pulling a gun on a protester. Right. It's just, it's a reminder that it takes all kinds. It takes all kinds to be racist for sure. I completely am on board with that. And I think that like, what is so funny is that there have been so many people in my immediate world in the fashion space where I'm like, I'm really reflecting on, look, I am totally that person who was like, yeah, but like.

I work here, you know, like they have one black person, like I can change things. Like I can cast black models. It's like, at what point is, are we going to recognize that like diversity isn't the, and by the way, that took literally centuries of fashion to get to the point where black models were even considered. And we were like very comfortable for a while thinking that that was. Wait, are there black models besides Naomi Campbell? I haven't seen any. Right. You know what I mean? And like, those are conversations that are really fucking happening. Like, but like who, like we're grasping at straws thinking of like, okay, but who is at this level that we can cast? Like there just aren't, it's literally non-existent in terms of there being like any sort of black establishment besides like token, you know, people who have been granted entree into the golden coffers of the fashion industry. it's really, it's prevalent. Like the, the, the, um, presentation of like real white supremacist thought is prevalent as fuck in this industry. And we're all just trying to, you know, and they also don't, they don't really hide it in the, in the fashion world as well either. No, there's no interest in hiding it because here's the thing. It's like, is it at least kind of refreshing that they don't hide it? Or not at all. I mean, it makes it easier to call out for sure, but it's not, I mean, I think what we really are realizing is that this system is like implicitly entrenched in white power structures. Like luxury was an invention of exclusion. So it's like, there is no, there is no way to hide or, you know, hide from that culpability. But what. is even more damaging to me is this very, very hollow, very, very surface interest in presenting alignment with the values of movements like Black Lives Matter. I'm like, I don't actually want to hear it from you because it means nothing. It literally means nothing. I think in the last couple of years, especially with campaign images and stuff, for me, looking at those, it felt like a stunt.

Like when you put, I mean, you know, Nike or someone like that would do something where it was literally like an amputee is in the ad. And it's like, guys, what do we do? What the fuck? Like fully, like absolutely fully. There's no like, this is, it's just very clear what you're doing. You know what I mean? It's very clear what you're doing. And it's, you know, in a way it reflects the way that America is right now, which is like, we've been racist. It's just like, now we're not afraid to do it in public. It's like fashion has been looting. black culture since the beginning of time and now it's like we're just gonna continue to do that but like message it in a way that it seems like black people are implicit like that's why in a lot of ways i feel like like my job my proximity to that system makes me feel complicit enough that it's starting to feel like indentured servitude it's like i like i'm not a slave but like i'm working towards my freedom by engaging with these systems because i think that they're the cosine of the establishment is the only way that i could break into you know the real structural are you are you thinking differently about your job now from like a a bigger picture way obviously i mean the the the the you know um Kind of in-your-face stuff is pretty clear, but overall, are you going to approach it differently? Also, tell people what you do. I mean, we said it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, I am the fashion director of Garage Magazine, which as of right now does not have an editor-in-chief, so that is a role. Oh, they didn't replace Mark? They didn't replace Mark. I don't think there's any interest in replacing Mark. And to be honest, I don't know if it's a job that I'm necessarily suited for. But I think that in a lot of ways, I am right now responsible for what we're putting out into the world as a magazine. De facto. De facto. So I think I am reevaluating my job insofar as the fact that I think that changes can be made within this industry that reflect at least a path towards reconciling how...

oppressive it is my current kind of internal turmoil is like is that enough like am i satisfied with making changes within a system that's flawed or like do i need to be focusing my energy on creating a parallel system that embodies who we are and you know as when i say who we are i mean black creatives and one day might be as powerful in a black space as the white establishment is so i think like It's almost identical to the eight can't wait versus abolitionist praxis. It's like, do I want to work within this system to try and make it a little bit better? Or do I need to divest from the system entirely to concentrate on efforts that are about creating an alternative system with equity? I am thinking about a lot of that. Right now, I'm like, look, I'm also 28 and need a fucking paycheck. So, like, yes, I will do the work. I love fashion. I love being a stylist and an editor. And I'm just going to use our pages to be black as hell and diversified as hell in opinion and in representation and in leadership and in, you know, content. Another, well, that's a good place to be. I mean, you know, I... This is something that I struggle with and I haven't talked about a lot, but it's a little bit like, is there a point where we can look at it as who is the best person for the job? Or are we too far gone to do that? I mean, I think in terms of... leadership, there is a point in which we can be thinking like, who is the best person for the job? When you look at, I'm not even kidding you. I have, you know, I'm in this very, very long winded Instagram group chat with black creatives in the fashion industry, you know, in Europe and here. And when you look at the advancement of visual culture in not even the past, like one year, two years, five years, like fully almost a decade, the majority of those.

contributors are people of color and we represent exactly like one percent of the leadership of this industry so it's like yeah there are people who are better for this job based on the work that we're putting out that is actually like relevant interesting like exploratory and that's just not reflected in like c-suite executives or like leadership teams so i think what we need to be doing is like i love your black lives matter black square post show me a picture of your leadership board like you know like we really need to be pressing the issue um and it's hard because i have spent my entire life being like the problem or like there's always something with gab like what the fuck is she gonna go off about now like this angry black woman um categorization is uh damaging in a lot of ways but it's just like now is not the time to be backing down and i really feel um that we can change this industry for the better and make it an accurate reflection of the contributions of its black contributors. And right now that's a mission. I would agree with you. I think it's more the kind of situation where I was talking to my girlfriend about this, but, but it was kind of like, look, everybody thought fashion was fucked from COVID blah, blah, blah. But my, my take was basically like, well, look, it's the old people are still in the same people that before are in charge. Now, if they want to have a fucking fashion show, they're going to have one. You know what I mean? Like if they, yeah. It's not going to be, if they don't want to be digital, then it really won't be in the long run. Yeah. And I think that that, my point being is that old guard still exists. So penetrating that, penetrating that is obviously the biggest task really. I completely agree. Because that's who makes real decisions. Yeah. There are still gatekeepers of this industry too who are part of that old guard who are really resistant to not only just like bowing out gracefully and like let the revolution start, but like are like fully. anti-changing the structure of fashion like they like the way it is and they want it to remain that way and it will remain and they'll hire these young bright voices that are changing things instead of letting them independently grow on their own and then potentially take them down yeah but also like they're also not hiring those bright independent voices like they're literally finding like the miniature replication of themselves in

the future and are putting them in on tracks of you know on like fast tracks to be able to take the reins when they're gone like there really is a stewardship of this white supremacist fashion model and we have to call it out because exactly as you said like it's gonna happen they're gonna they still make the decisions you know they still make the decisions if they want to have a fashion show they're gonna have a fashion show if they want to cast black people to cast if they don't they won't and like that's how it's gonna go You know, someone like someone like Tyler Mitchell, for example, you know, obviously his work is great. That's not really the issue. But to me, it feels like it literally took like a Beyonce cosign for someone like for someone like that, which is like that is such a huge leap. You know what I mean? Like it's not enough. And it's just it's not enough to just be good. You know what I mean? And that's an issue that that's an issue. Yeah. And Tyler is out here trying to get free like the rest of us. But the thing that's so crazy is because he exists now, fashion is like, okay, cool. Everything's fixed. Like, I'm done. And it's like, that's just not the fucking case, my man. Like, you know, like, come on. But I think this is the same. I mean, and I mean, you can speak on this for sure. But I think this is the same thing we were talking about a couple years ago with women. You know, where it was like, we have to hire a female photographer. We have to hire a female that, you know what I mean? And that was the cause for a little while. And it worked to an extent. I mean, there definitely were more women getting hired. But what's the end game? You know what I mean? How long does that actually last? And what is the intention? Like, it really was for... for the most part, from what I can see of like the entire investment in the female gaze, it was like, how do we confront the fact that we're being called out for our like extreme investment in patriarchy? It's like, what is the easiest, like most in line with fashion way? It's like, oh, like white women who like, you know.

want to shoot with like the colors pink and like, you know what I mean? And like through rose colored glasses and like, I'm not going to let, I'm not going to let you sit here and attack white women on my podcast. Okay. You need to watch. Honestly, like that. that is the vigor of the industry in defense of like the least defensible populations of all time. It's like, how dare you call out rich people? Like we made them, you know, it's just like, but I'm telling you, I think right now, and I never thought I would say this. I think white women have it worse than white men right now. I never think this competition could ever, I didn't think it could happen, but I think that's, I think it's shifted. Oh, I mean. I never even thought about that, Chris. That's damn, a small victory. dude look at i mean look at i mean dude karen is literally a phrase now i was just about to say what are you guys because look i'm like been knowing karens like i don't whatever but as white straight men like look i'm just glad my mother is not a karen that's all i can that's all i can say my mom is not a karen but her name is karen and we haven't discussed it yet but i know it's an issue that she wants to bring up It's just crazy. And it's like, you know, it's all centered around this idea of like, of like white fragility and how this like desire to be victimized is it's like this real pornographic interest and like being a part of the struggle that we need to be decoding. And like, I'm happy that Karen is a fucking phrase. There's literally a campaign. There's a woman. Oh my God. What is her name? There is a woman. on Instagram, who's like, like, we don't say Negro anymore. Like, we can't be saying Karen. Like, all, like, women exist in multitudes. Like, all white women aren't Karens. And I'm like, the fact that there are people out there whose, like, investment of energy is towards this kind of campaign. Towards the All Karens Matter movement. And All Karens Matter movement. It's almost like...

It feels sci-fi, but it's really just finally worth seeing. Jason, I think we need to have a Karen on to show the other side of the argument. I think that's important for us. Representation matters. Representation matters. 100%. You should have a Karen on. I could probably give you a few. The thing about Karen is that I think that in most people's minds, it's the same as I need to speak to your manager. It is. But I'm saying they can, a Karen can come in all forms. They don't have to have that haircut or be this, you know what I mean? Like the visual representation of a Karen is that haircut. And like, basically. A hundred percent. being like a friend of my mom in the nineties from jazzercise. Like that's kind of, that's kind of, we may have even hit a Karen at one point in our life, Chris. Oh yeah. I was about to say, all of y'all better look at your ex-girlfriends because there's a Karen in there at some point. I mean, well, not girlfriends, but just a little one piece, one off activation. A one piece activation. I literally like. It's true. I mean, it would be impossible to avoid. It's impossible to avoid. It's impossible to avoid in all aspects of life, really. 100%. Personally, I'm here for the way I like the aestheticization of Karen because literally that look is so repulsive to me. I'm like, at least people can make fun of your haircut and your cargo shorts. You know what I mean? I'm down with that. But yeah, I do think that... I have, there are many, many people calling out Karens right now who themselves are Karens and they too are not safe. Well, when the whites, look, when the whites start turning on themselves, it's every day for themselves. You know what I'm saying? As you said, it ain't safe. There's only so many podcast advertising dollars at stake. So we will turn on our own. If it's feast or famine, I'm coming for anybody. You know, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. Look out for number one. You have to, and I think that's, you know, I think that that is what people are doing. I think it feels very, like you said, just the world feels so chaotic. It's, it's hard not to be self-involved and navel gazing because of, because of it feels so unsure. Everything feels so unsure, you know? Yeah. I completely, I completely understand that. And I, I have to like give space to like my weird California hippie dumb and thinking that like. It does not feel coincidental that at this moment in time, when like our planet is fucking hurting, when like there's a massive global pandemic and public health crisis, that we are finally becoming open to a conversation that centers around the, you know. internal oppression of of black people and and it really does bum me out when i when i hear the surprise and when i'm like when i when i see people recounting their interactions with police and i can't believe they started tear gassing us and like we were doing nothing it's like that's yeah you're not doing you're not doing as nothing as like a 10 year old boy walking from school like no one's like that's just not i mean do you think um I feel like this week felt a little more positive in general. Would you agree with that? Or do you think there hasn't been any progress or I'm making it up? I mean, I do think that, you know, people are, you know, mayors are lifting their curfews. Like people are in power are condemning, at least in words, police actions. I think in terms of it being positive, I worry. about the fact that the reason why a lot of these measures are being taken right now is in order to placate those of us who are angry and who are talking about it. And my biggest fear right now is that when people aren't out there macing protesters, we're going to forget that there's a police brutality issue, you know? And there is so much skin in the game of, like, being on the front lines and fighting for Black liberation.

It doesn't, that level of heat at this scale can't last forever. And we need to be having the conversations about like, what are we doing? What's next? And like, how are we practically enacting all of the things that we're screaming on the streets? Like, are we going into our, are we writing our mayors? Are we writing our representatives? Sure, that's all great. But it's like, are you also going into your meetings and telling everyone, you know, I'm the only black voice here and I've been ignored. ignored for my entire career and like how are you now gonna what are your reparations in that way like those are the harder conversations so I'm just hoping that this vigor exists in a different scale when we all like don't have 24 hours a day to be on our phones you know I mean that's the thing my screen time this week was almost per day was almost 10 hours and I was like I don't I don't know if I need to be taking I don't know if there's that much new information for me to take in you know what I mean and it but it feels irresponsible to not be as informed as possible. Yeah. In some ways it is, but in other ways it's like, do I really need, like, what am I, at a certain point, am I hurting myself or am I helping myself? Right. Is what I mean. Right, right, right. Like, are you, are you, yeah, no, I know. We're all learning how to do it right now. Right. I completely agree. And I will say that the only kind of upside to being glued to our phones right now is that it replicates. the feeling of like constant inundation of pain and anger that black people feel every single day. So I'm like, sit, like maybe sit in that and like, and appreciate that. Um, because that's what it feels like. And it's not comfortable. And like, we need to all start, like we need to all start getting skin in that game, you know? Shit. You just really hit me over the head with that one. Okay. I do. I have been known to hit one or two folks over the head. I gotta go. I need to doom scroll for five more hours to feel something. You're talking a lot and I need to scroll more.

I am like very happy with this conversation though, because I fucking love talking and I can't believe you guys let me do it on your podcast. And I'm like very, you know, thank you. Oh, Hey, no, we're, we're, we're grateful to have you. Honestly. Like, I mean, I think we, I think we actually talked about this before everything happened actually. So it's, we did. And I think you and I, well, we really bonded on that Tom Ford football trip. That's when we, that's true. Well, when you saw, I mean, when you see an athlete, we don't have time for humble brags, you guys. It's hard. It's hard when you saw, I mean, when you saw the athleticism, it's hard not to take notice. You know what I mean? When you saw the touchdown pass. When you saw that Lil Uzi was there, then you forgot that Chris Black was there is what happened to me. Right, exactly. I was like, who? I was like, please don't let Uzi see me next to him. Yo, Uzi, I'm just talking to him. I don't know this white man. I'm just talking to him. We're co-workers. We work together. It really be like that sometimes. But honestly, no, thank you so much for coming on. I think this was like... the right tone too. That's this thing with, we, we, we like to give the information, but not feel like a white paper. You know what I mean? Right, right, right, right, right. And I think that is kind of your vibe too. Um, so, so I think, I think it worked well. And, um, well, I can do it all day. And thank you. And Jason, it's nice to meet you. It's nice to meet you as well on, on FT. Maybe one day, you know, now that New York is canceled, you might move back to California. Who knows? I actually am really about that LA life. I'm not even kidding. Besides the fact that your mayor's trash and your police chief is actually a fucking monster. We're the only city in the country that has a bad mayor. I mean, you're the only city in the country besides New York I would want to fucking live in. All right. Well, look, I'll let you guys know when I settle in Iowa, how nice the, how clean the area is. Right. I mean, really, I'm like about this back to Africa movement. So y'all can come visit me in Senegal, but whatever. You know what I mean?

Damn, I would really have to get my flavor up before I visit Senegal. I don't think that I would. The way I fit in in the Blue Lives Matter gym would be the exact opposite in Senegal. Yes, I'm very, I mean, I tend to agree. And let people know where they can find you on the internet. I'm going, okay, yeah. So like, I guess my Instagram handle, does that make sense? Yes, that makes great sense. Okay, it's at Gabriella K underscore J. Very creative and yeah. Come see me yell a lot. Come see me in the stories. You can see fits and learn something. It's truly the best of both worlds. You can see fits and learn something. And you might even get to see someone get called out that you know. Wow, even better. You can watch your enemy get destroyed. What more do we need? Those are the three. That's the trifecta. Who's next on the list of getting exposed? Can we have a pod exclusive? You know what? I'm still very much in the mix with Derek Glasberg. Oh, you know what? I forgot we didn't touch on this. Hold on. Yes. If we had a Patreon, this is where that would hit right now. Yes, it is. So I know this guy Nimrod who wrote that thing, but it's like a medium thing that pieces it all together, which I'm sure you saw. Oh, yeah, and I didn't know him at all before. I know him. He's like a British guy that's like friend of friends and I've hung out with him a few times. uh he's he's a piece of work but like on the struggling medium platform exactly i i try not to i try not to read or repost things on medium it's a personal brand thing um but uh but so the issue is just to break it down is blazberg is a a he's friends with ivanka and jared because of his relationship with carly kloss because they grew up together and are friends i like yes but that's where he like got the entree but he really just been around that social set for a while he's just a scammer he's just interested in being involved with that social set which like find more power to you what i actually think is so funny is that

the that entire article was you know focused on his connection to like people who represent fascism in Tavi Gevinson's mind and she had called him out and then I think like Naomi Fry had like also called him out he ended up unfollowing Ivanka whatever but what was so funny is like I wasn't even in that shit I was just like at the you know as the head of fashion and beauty at youtube like can we count on you to be amplifying and elevating black and brown voices that was a comment that he chose not to engage with and instead like decided to engage with the white women calling him a neo-fascist so like that's where where i started because i was like you just posted black lives matter and then you are refusing to actually acknowledge on your platform publicly you know the ways in which you with a an enormous personal platform but aside from that one of the most powerful media platforms on the whole of the internet youtube at your you know fingertips so it's like let's hear what you're gonna do behind this like black square and You know, he didn't want to engage with it on his page. He said that, like, he didn't even see it. He got lost. Meanwhile, there are, like, 150 comments on the fucking post. He only replies to a blue check. Right, but it's also just, like, right. And it's also, like, I'm sorry. If you're going to post Black Lives Matter on your social media platform and don't have the time to read the 150 comments underneath that, you don't think that black, you're not invested in this game. So take the fucking post down. You know what I mean? Damn. It really ain't safe. Not even for Blasberg and his fucking hair. It's not. I mean, here's the thing. I don't, I'm not, I really am not afraid of these people. Cancel me out of this fucking industry if you want to. The work that I, I love it. I love the work that I do. But at the end of the day, it's not. The degree of change that I can do in this industry is a fraction of the change I would like to make in this world. So if y'all don't fuck with me, you don't fuck with me. But I really hope you do because the shit I have to say is stuff you need to hear. I feel like canceling is contagious. And now we're all seeing that we can cancel these people who deserve to be canceled and our lives go on. There's totally an exposure of the power structure and how arbitrary that is. But also how intentional it is for the people in power to be like...

rich, like socially connected white people. And like, that's not reflective of the work this industry is putting out. So let's fucking change it. Well, look, let me say something. When I become a rich, socially connected white person, I'm bringing, I'm bringing you to the top with me. So, okay, great. I'll be on the top already, but you know, Chris will be your white night. Finally, finally. Oh, God, I'm growing so much. All right, well, look, thank you. Have a safe flight back to New York. Thank you guys so much. And we'll talk to you soon, all right? All right. All right, bye. Bye.